The least of its problems IMO, when the Cybertruck looks like it was designed to inflict maximum harm to pedestrians in a crash. The fact that such an obviously destructive design is legal on public roads should be setting off alarm bells at the USDOT and NHTSA.
It looks like it's designed to inflict maximum harm, but it seems that it's actually less likely to kill you than an F-150 or Silverado or Ram. It has a lower hood height which is the aspect that has been hypothesized to be the reason that trucks kill pedestrians at a much greater rate than cars.
I'm not trying to condone Cybertruck here. I hope the Cybertruck becomes a rallying cry to mandate pedestrian safety in the US, and that mandate becomes data driven and indicts F-150 et al.
Are there enough Cybertrucks on the roads for us to detect their danger levels statistically? I’ve never seen one and I don’t live in the middle of nowhere or anything…
We seen a good dozen or more in a couple of weeks in Orlando.
To be clear, I agree with you on them being statistically insignificant.
It's certainly a conversation worth having, but a fundamental difference between the CT and something like an F150 is utility -- the CT is unapologetically a lifestyle vehicle emphasizing form over function. A regular pickup is very utilitarian. I know it's fashionable to argue that half-ton pickups are very commonly used as lifestyle pickups too, but at least the design is clearly aimed at function over form.
So the argument probably is less about how the design should change, but how to avoid incentivizing the use of utility vehicles for family duty.
Disclaimer: I drive an F150 Lightning, so I'm part of the problem I suppose; but damn if it isn't just about the most useful all-around family vehicle I've ever owned. As long as you don't routinely drive downtown, and I don't.
A pickup from the last century is utilitarian with their 8 foot beds and a box height low enough to reach in from the side. Modern pickups much less so.
I can't say I agree that "regular pickups" are very utilitarian, unless you're talking about the base trim work trucks. They seem to me to be incredibly expensive luxury vehicles for the most part.
The design 100% has to change. There is a marketing battle for the highest hood, since it looks dope as fuck. We should mandate a maximum hood height for all vehicles that's dependent on driver visibility. When the next F-150 needs three steps to enter because the hood is too high and we woke up and mandated that pedestrian visibility needs to be maintained, then that's when change will happen.
It's been slowly increasing in size. Pickups last century were slightly smaller but not dramatically so -- if you look at like-for-like. A bigger driver of size IMO is the appreciate we now have for crew cabs. Those used to be rare to see on the road, now it's regular cabs that are extremely rare.
> When the next F-150 needs three steps to enter
This is mostly an aftermarket thing, and a superduty thing. My Lightning has running boards that are a little awkward to use because it isn't tall enough to justify them. I use them when getting in and out but only because they're otherwise in the way of my leg, not because the truck is hard to just step into.
My kids are old enough right about now that if Ford were to come out with an electric Ranger, I might trade. I do like how the midsize trucks drive (though the Lightning is quite remarkable in how well it drives for a half-ton size truck).
Pickups are about 10 inches taller now than they used to be. That seems like a lot to me.
According to the youtube video that a different commenter linked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuX-5E7xoU), lowering the hood height by 10 inches will make the truck 81% less likely to kill a kid in a collision.
90s trucks sure. But they turned into tonka trucks over the last 30 years. The grills and everything just keep getting bigger.
It’s actually worse than that though. Ford got rid of the heavy duty package on the f150 and said to customers “just buy the f250 instead”. Which is even more tonka.
FortNine did a great rundown on this phenomenon last year:
"Grilles That Kill"
NJB did as well: https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo
For the stereo-typical truck driver, a motorcycle Youtube channel is going to be much more sympathetic than a bicycle channel.
Of course the stereotype doesn't always apply, I certainly know people who have transporting bicycles as a major use case for their truck.
Cybertruck is a great case study in how people confuse form for function.
In a world where technology is advancing exponentially, aesthetics increasingly offer a poor signal for performance, and only those who obsessively look under the hood and disregard form will see through it all.
Yep. There were endless articles and hundreds of comments here about how atrocious the crash safety of the cyber truck must be for occupants. Everyone knew for a fact it had no crumple zone, etc.
Then the actual crash testing data comes out…… And crickets.
Peoples intuition is very, very wrong.
Yeah it seems like a lower hood height would be an improvement, but it's also pretty obvious that sharp corners are going to make things much worse! There's no way you can say "it seems that it's actually less likely to kill you"...
Not only Cybertruck. Also other trucks like Ford F150 etc.
Trucks in general are awful for pedestrians and other motorists, but the Cybertruck is made specifically of sharp angles that will rip and tear more than a big flat vertical wall running into you.
Pickup trucks aren't flat vertical walls like a semi though. They are a high wall with a hood.
While "sharp" edge can certainly break bones, getting hit with a high hood causes people to slam their head into the hood with very little travel time compared to a low hood. Head injuries are far more likely to cause death.
Of course, the risk varies based on height. Sharp edges a couple feet off the ground are far more dangerous to someone only a couple feet tall.
The front is rounded which is the place you'll hit in the vast majority of cases.
clear case of bias infecting judgment.
Buses are terrible too
Unlike Ford trucks, the cybertruck isn't even street legal in Europe due to its anti-human design. They are not the same.
It's not legal in europe.
Neither are many vehicles sold in the US. That doesn’t tell us much.
I’m not sure if you mean to imply that most US vehicles aren’t sold in Europe, but I don’t think that’s the case -- there are plenty of US cars in Europe (including Teslas, although they’re going rapidly out of fashion).
I don't think any US cars are capable of being sold without a whole heap of changes. US cars in Europe have been modified to meet the regulations. Same of course for European cars in the US.
Same as rat poison, coming 2026...
2028.. Europe starves...
Good luck with that. This is the CEOs pet project, who spent 3mo openly and directly dismantling regulatory groups in the U.S. while at the same time threatening to pull out of key defense and aerospace initiatives if the poor guy didn’t get his way
I wish we had more respect for innovation.
Is this really happening though?
> the Cybertruck looks like it was designed to inflict maximum harm to pedestrians in a crash
Isn't that the selling point?
have you got any stats to back that up?
Mechanically sure, but I still feel way safer when a Tesla (of any kind) is approaching me as a pedestrian or bicyclist than any other vehicle (except maybe Waymo) because I know they will alert the driver and brake if necessary. Any other car, especially older trucks, I'm quite afraid of, based on experience.
> because I know they will alert the driver and brake if necessary.
This is not necessarily accurate.
https://x.com/TaylorOgan/status/1681240264554209281 ("Warning: Graphic; Last month, a 76-year-old pedestrian was tragically mowed down by a Tesla Model S in Brooklyn, NY. Both of his legs were torn off, according to witnesses. New data from the NHTSA says the Tesla was engaged on Autopilot/Full Self-Driving mode.")
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-y-doesnt-stop-...
I own several Teslas, would not trust them to stop for a pedestrian while in any driver assist mode. It may work, but if you rely on it, be prepared for consequences when it fails, as you are the responsible party when it fails.
You would need to compare the data against the data of non-smart trucks. I'm guessing it's an order of magnitude more dangerous to be a pedestrian around a normal truck.
Automatic emergency braking is a standard feature on many new cars, and will be mandatory for all new passenger cars and light trucks in the U.S. by September 2029. I am open to the assertion that Tesla's AEB, when scoped to pedestrian scenarios, is superior to other AEB systems, but this assertion requires independently verified data and evidence for support.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/automatic-em...
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-safety/aeb-with-ped...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_emergency_braking_sy...
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-04/final-ru... [pdf]
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a63027394/feds-automated-e...
Dumb trucks don't encourage their drivers to turn their brains off.
That first crash sure doesn't sound like Autopilot/FSD, given that the car kept going after the crash.
Tesla is currently renting vehicles for $60/day due to diminished demand; if one would like to test this personally, the cost is minimal. Avoid bodily injury whenever possible during testing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coeaqdexknE
https://electrek.co/2025/11/10/tesla-cant-sell-cars-so-renti...
Edit: @romaaeterna Are you willing to stand in front of it while it is at speed without a safety driver? I am trying to reconcile the mental model with risk appetite and potential gaps between priors and current state.
I have a Tesla and a drive FSD back and forth to work every day. It's great
Edit in response to your edit:
Would I risk myself standing in front of a FSD Tesla versus in front of an Uber or an average human-controlled car with the standard percentage chance of the human texting or being otherwise distracted or drunk or tired? I would take FSD. And I think that a mathematical rather than emotional evaluation of the odds would make risk-minded people do the same.
Hopefully not anywhere near me. My family needs me.
They must love drama
In my experience, Tesla drivers are some of the worst drivers on the road. They seem to pay the least attention to what's going on around them and are the most likely to pay fast and loose with the rules of the road. I don't know what's to account for this. There has been at least one study out of Berkeley that suggests that people who drive more expensive cars are more likely to break the rules of the road. It's possible that (at least here in Seattle), this is more likely to be the driver's first car since many people driving them are highly paid tech workers who often hail from others countries and who may not have as good of a grasp of driving in the US. Or it may be that this is enabled by autopilot itself (if your car is taking care of the safety you don't have to pay as much attention).
The last reason is the biggest imo. Previously if you didn't pay attention you would crash relatively often. Now you aren't punished in the same way. In the same way spell check made us worse spellers. You aren't required to pay attention to detail, so you never develop that skill.
I taught my kids to drive both manuals and automatics. Usually we got the hang of driving an automatic, and then added manual in to the mix.
But with one of my kids, it was exactly as above. They scared the crap out of me, because they just would not focus well enough. We transitioned to a manual so that they were required to focus on the task at hand, and they then turned into a good driver.
(Aside: my kids, now college+ age have all gotten great deals on cars on college budgets, because they were willing to take a manual that cost far less due to reduced demand).
> There has been at least one study out of Berkeley that suggests that people who drive more expensive cars are more likely to break the rules of the road.
In Germany, we have a joke - BMWs don't need turn signal indicators, they have built-in precedence that comes with paying the money one needs to have to afford a BMW.
Who needs Fahrvergnügen when you can have Bezahltumvorfahrtsgefühligkeitsrechtserwartung (Paid-for-precedence-feeling-of-entitlement-expectation)?
Totally forgot about that. It's been decades since I've seen a far fig Newtons commercial.
May be misplaced considering Teslas have hit pedestrians. Additionally, many cars have pedestrian/object collision detection.
Virtually every car made in the past 5-10 years emergency brakes. I mean, modern Honda's have the same level of autonomous driving as Teslas.
Are collision avoidance system and automated emergency braking not standard in the US? Here in Switzerland basically every new vehicle has them.
As a motorcyclist I feel far less safe when one is around me.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tesla-fatal-seattle-are...
Given the amount of pedestrians that have been killed by Telsas in "autopilot" mode, I can't say that I agree.
Could you give me some numbers about deaths caused by Tesla versus other brands per mile driven? It seems to be very difficult to find enough information to draw any conclusions.
I believe the only information is crowd-sourced:
About: https://electrek.co/2025/02/06/elon-musk-approved-tesla-full...
Actual data: https://teslafsdtracker.com/
My Honda has a break alert system.
Even presuming pieces weren't falling off, every time I see one of these my first thought is how did this pass safety standards (e.g. the sharp corners/blades/edges; pedestrian-strike setups).
Now add on flying corners/blades/edges ... even less enthused.
----
I finally drove in a Rivian — and while I prefer the hybrid drivetrains — it was exceptionally nice. As an American, I can't wait for BYD to offer test drives here.
> how did this pass safety standards
In the US, the safety standards consider only the occupants of the car. The safety of pedestrians, cyclists, and occupants of other cars are not considered. This was looking like it would change but with the current administration I doubt it.
The Cybertruck is not legal in Europe and anywhere else with actual safety standards.
Downvote or not, it's true:
> NHTSA conducts frontal, side and rollover tests because these types account for the majority of crashes on America's roadways.
> IIHS tests evaluate two aspects of safety: crashworthiness — how well a vehicle protects its occupants in a crash — and crash avoidance and mitigation — technology that can prevent a crash or lessen its severity.
> As well as assessing how well cars protect their occupants, Euro NCAP tests how well they protect those vulnerable road users – pedestrians and cyclists – with whom they might collide.
That's misleading. They don't test for pedestrian safety as part of the normal tests. But they test for it generally, not specific to any model and use those results to inform their rules about what can and can't be sold. Same story with rollover testing.
This is why hood ornaments mostly died and flip up headlights fully died. The NHTSA doesn't write rules that ban specific features. You can do anything it meets the requirements. You can make brake hoses out of woven spaghetti if you want. It'll probably cost you a lot to get them to a performance point where they meet the rules though.
Furthermore, the NHTSA doesn't do most testing. The testing must be done and the testing needs to meet NHTSA standards but the OEMs are free to DIY it or outsource.
> Same story with rollover testing.
That's for occupants.
> Furthermore, the NHTSA doesn't do most testing.
Which is why I quoted IIHS and other non-US testing.
> NHTSA standards
Which standards are for e.g. pedestrian safety? The hood ornament thing?
> That's misleading. They don't test for pedestrian safety as part of the normal tests. But they test for it generally
No, it isn't and no they didn't/don't. E.g. GAO report from 2020 [0]:
> NHTSA’s last substantial update of NCAP was in July 2008 (with changes effective for model year 2011 vehicles). This update established additional crash tests and technical standards to protect vehicle occupants, but did not include pedestrian safety tests.
Or from NHTSA itself in 2022 [1], although note this is a "proposal" and "recommendations":
> For the first time ever, NCAP includes technology recommendations not only for drivers and passengers but for road users outside the vehicle, like pedestrians. The proposal [...]. We look forward to reviewing the comments we receive and considering them as we complete this important work.”
They will/might, by adopting Euro NCAP [2]:
> This final decision notice adds a crashworthiness pedestrian protection program to the New Car Assessment Program (NCAP) to evaluate new model year vehicles’ abilities to mitigate pedestrian injuries. Based on its previous research, NHTSA concurs with and adopts most of the European New Car Assessment Programme’s (Euro NCAP) pedestrian crashworthiness assessment methods [...]
> These changes to the New Car Assessment Program are effective for the 2026 model year.
But as of yet, this does not appear on their NCAP ratings: https://www.nhtsa.gov/ratings/resources-related-nhtsas-new-c...
[0]: https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-20-419.pdf
[1]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/five-star-safety-rating...
[2]: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-11/NCAP-Fin...
NHTSA outlawed hood ornaments purely for pedestrian safety, so it’s not 100% correct.
One thing for pedestrians in 1968 and nothing since then. I'd say that's four, maybe five nines of correctness.
BYD is overhyped in the US for some reason. In the countries where they are available, they are considered decent budget vehicles. There's a reason why the Model Y is still the best seller in China.
https://autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/what-were-best-s... says, for the first half of 2025:
andBest-selling BEVs in China January to June 2025 Geely Geome Xingyuan 205,091 BYD Seagull 174,912 Tesla Model Y 171,491
⇒ I doubt the Tesla model Y is the best seller in China.Tesla’s quarterly delivery boost meant its June results propelled the Model Y into third, from fifth in May> There's a reason why the Model Y is still the best seller in China.
Yes, but it's the same reason the original bondi blue iMac was the best selling model of computer when it came out, while Apple themselves were still on something like 5% of desktop sales:
Lots of wood behind few arrows.
https://carnewschina.com/2024/07/14/best-selling-vehicle-bra...
(Caveat: first result, I don't know site reputation)
Some would say Tesla has been over hyped as well.
They can say, but in open markets Teslas sell better than cheaper BYD’s.
1. Are there any truly open markets for cars?
2. Tesla China has factories in China, was still #8 in Chinese market, with BYD at #1, if this source from 2024 is correct: https://carnewschina.com/2024/07/14/best-selling-vehicle-bra...
Australia, NZ.
I've test drove my mates atto3, I have model y. He's got lots of regrets, fixes. It's made from good materials, styled poorly and technology is like everyone else - poorly done. Price does reflect it, no free lunch.
Same country that seems to disproportionately like Buicks? Yeah, “there’s a reason”, but it might not be what you think it is.
> In the countries where they are available, they are considered decent budget vehicles.
Yes, and I want a decent budget vehicle here.
X-Pengs are where it's at. They are taking over fast in Europe with better cars for less money.
> There's a reason why the Model Y is still the best seller in China
...and that reason is that Tesla only has two models, the 3 and Y, that get any significant sales in China whereas BYD has several.
For example in the top 10 a couple months ago BYD had models that sold 70%, 69%, 59%, 58%, and 53% of what the Model Y sold.
When you look at cars sold per company rather than specific models Tesla is #10 in China with 1/6th of BYD's sales. Between BYD and Tesla there is Geely, Chery, Changan, Haval, a SAIC-GM-Wuling joint venture, a SAIC-Volkswagen joint venture, Toyota, and Xiaomi Auto.
The hype is because they are decent budget vehicles.
> every time I see one of these my first thought is
Even ignoring the parts falling off & the safety, every time I see one of these my first thought is "who saw a picture of this and said 'yep, that's what I want'"
Relevant XKCD is the most recent: #3167
"If I don't install more whirling spiked clubs, I'll be destroyed by the other drivers..."
Because the individual angles and feature sizes and locations aren't all that egregious when compared to everything else you find on modern pickups. Look at the current Tundra let alone a Chevy 2500. What's different is the complete lack of other styling features to soften the look. Of course it wouldn't pass safety in Europe, but neither would the other stuff mentioned.
BYDs are never coming to the American market.
Well we're going to have a new president in a little over 2 years so I'm not sure why you say "never."
Three years, unless something happens to Trump or he resigns or is impeached and removed. This is still the first of his four years in office, though it feels like longer.
Ha you're right but anyway... two or three years isn't "never"
Fair point, I'd say probably not until early next decade unless something substantial changes politically in the US. By that point, the EV demand in the US will probably be high enough to force allowing imports unless domestic manufacturers have finally figured out how to make affordable EVs.
No—but there's been enough talk among Republicans suggesting that they intend to prevent or rig further elections to raise doubt about whether we're going to get free and fair elections in 2028.
You're awaiting a new president with hopes the Chinese can again saturate the market with more of their cheap junk?
As opposed to American cars, which are, as we all know, not junk.
Are BYD junk? They sure are nice to ride in. Feel comparable to Tesla.
The Chinese make any level of quality you are willing to pay for.
ehhh they said that about the Japanese cars in the 70's and 80's
Maybe you mean the US market. In Canada we don't have a Hitler wannabe yet at the top, so we might still get them.
I'm not sure if the USA will allow them in Canada either. Pushing back against China is one of the few things both parties agree with right now.
Canada's auto industry is tied to the US's. As much as BYD coming to the US would hurt all of North America's auto industry. BYD coming to Canada would also hurt the auto industry. They are just too interconnected.
> Canada's auto industry is tied to the US's.
As is Mexico's, but BYD is available there — as well in a number of other North American countries.
> BYD coming to Canada would also hurt the auto industry.
To be fair, it is already hurting from the attacks launched by the USA. Canada has been considering partnering with China instead as a result of this. BYD is looking more and more realistic.
> Canada has been considering partnering with China instead as a result of this.
Also known as: "out of the frying pan and into the fire".
While I wouldn't piss on him to put him out, the Trump administration is not the nucleus of anti-chinese sentiment. It happened way before him. He's just loud and hamfisted about it.
Canada specifically, as a major supplier to US auto manufacturers and a resource economy in it's own right, should be wary of cozying up to Chinese business.
Unfortunately Rivian somehow has even worse reliability than Tesla.
And you can buy a BYD in America. There's just a pre-Trump 100% tariff on Chinese EVs with bipartisan support that isn't going away any time soon.
I tried with much effort to import a BYD, and the federal government slowed me down every step of the way to where I gave up around regime change last November. If you have a way I can buy a BYD today, regardless of cost, in the US, I would be interested.
How far did you get, and what do you mean "regardless of cost"? The big issue is going to be getting the vehicle to pass FMVSS, and it looks like no one has successfully done it. Have you talked to an RI to see if they know why?
I’m going through the RI process now for a vehicle ( not EV, not Chinese, not BYD)
If a vehicle was never sold in the US and is not FMVSS compliant (with a sticker), then the RI has to prove every piece of consequence IS compliant. Airbags tested to DOT standards. Headlights. Taillights. Seatbelts. Wipers. Crash safety. Dash lights, warning lights, backup camera FOV. TPMS. The list is like 10,000 things long.
Probably it does meet 99% of them , and the non-compliant things are an easy fix (we’re changing speedo in mine to mph).
The trick is you have to document and prove every single item on the list, often with lab testing. It takes years, and often millions of dollars.
I've seen BYD commercial vehicles in the US, but only at a company not known for following rules. I suspect commercial vehicles are easier to import anyway.
Regular passenger vehicles have a lot of standards they need to meet, which usually means manufacturer participation. Has BYD gone through the process to get passenger vehicles approved for use in the US? Otherwise, sure, you can get it imported under a conditional use to bring it to car shows, but not for daily use.
You can't. You don't want an old, non-electric one (presumably), so you can't use that loophole to register one. So unless you're the CEO of Ford (who has all the connections in the world), you won't be able to bring it in and register it, and depending on the state, you have to register it, even if it's not operating on public lands. I will pay $5k on top of the $8k base price and $8k for 100% tarrif, for a total of $21k for a BYD Seagull in California if you can get one delivered and registered to me. I'm sure there's collectors out there offering way more.
There are import exceptions for testing purposes which I would imagine is how Ford is able to bring one over.
Probably the best option is to collude with a nonresident [1]:
> Nonresidents may import a vehicle duty-free for personal use up to (1) one year if the vehicle is imported in conjunction with the owner's arrival. Vehicles imported under this provision that do not conform to U.S. safety and emission standards must be exported within one year and may not be sold in the U.S. There is no exemption or extension of the export requirements.
While the vehicle can't be sold in the US, and must be reexported after a year, there's nothing on this page that says the nonresident can't lend it to a resident for most of the year. If money isn't really a problem, buy overseas, pay a nonresident to arrive in the vehicle, and after a year, export it and sell it and repeat. Nothing on this page suggests the vehicle couldn't leave and re-enter, but that seems like asking for way too much trouble, I wouldn't be surprised if someone at the border is keeping track of VINs. Since BYDs are sold in Mexico, you don't even need to deal with shipping, just drive through the border.
It's tricky with a car that has never been sold in the US, but with something where production for the US market ended, but other markets continue, you end up with things like a 1990s VW beetle with a 1970s title. shhh
[1] https://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/importing-car
I don't see much of a reason why they would do that when the actual reason is already a legitimate import exception.
Sorry, I meant the best option for our friend fragmede who wants to drive a BYD as an everyday car would be to collude with a nonresident. If Ford wants to study and test a BYD, yeah, they can just import it under the appropriate classification.
That’s right. They’re only allowed to drive it for a limited time in limited ways. All automakers have this ability.
I know Tesla and the various models have their issues but the Cybertruck and the rest of the Tesla models seem like they are made from two completely different companies. Every time I see one of these driving around trim pieces are missing from them which I don't recall seeing from any other brand.
For all the initial PR they got, they've always had quality issues that rarely plague other manufacturers. Elon has just done a great job of creating a reality distortion field around the cars. Once he started getting into politics and the veneer started wearing off, people started asking questions.
I think people forget the Model 3 literally had the bumper falling off from driving in rain. And it took Tesla a LONG time to admit to it being their fault.
https://www.jalopnik.com/tesla-finally-admits-model-3-bumper...
Fit and finish is wildly variable. Panel gaps on the 3 and Y can be huge! I can tell which model in my office parking lot is mine solely based on the trunk and rear quarterpanel gaps.
Only for US made Tesla's. I live in Australia. We get Chinese made Tesla's here, and they have better fit and finish than the BYD's (as good as most other cars you care to name).
It's odd. The USA can make quality cars. Not Lexus quality, but cars you would be happy to own if they weren't so expensive. USA Tesla is the counter example. It makes you wonder about those self promoting stories from Elon about he saved the USA Tesla manufacturing operation by roving the manufacturing plants, making tweaks here and there. Maybe his tweaks wasn't the great boon he made them out to be.
> The USA can make quality cars. Not Lexus quality
Lexus makes cars in the US. They have Lexus quality by definition. :P
They literally went from an exoskeleton based truck bent into shape to an aluminium truck whose interior frame shatters on impact instead of the panels absorbing the hit - so instead of having to replace cheap plastic trim and collision absorbing metal bars, the energy gets dissipated inside the (almost unrepairable) aluminium frame.
Additionally, they didn't manage to find a satisfactory solution to attach the steel panels to the frame so they glued them on.
I suspect the 'parts falling off' has something to do with the inflexibility of both materials as well as the different thermal expansion coefficients.
On normal cars, bodywork is either made of flexible plastic, or is attached via spring joints so that the vibration doesn't damage them - that's why you have panel gaps - so they can move around a bit.
If you fix them rigidly, they're going to shake off eventually.
A monocoque design could be really cool. Like the original Mini. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini
Were I in charge, I'd've started with a kei car or city car. Or something (size wise) like Telo. https://www.telotrucks.com/
Definitely would not have started with an off-road vehicle.
It doesn't help perception that the last time I saw a cybertruck in SF, it was broken down the middle lane with the driver slowly walking sideways parallel to traffic alongside the truck... presumably to reattach or reset something? Why anyone would pay $$$ for this POS is beyond me.
I have a Tesla Model X and the front door and rear door aren't even latitudinally aligned.
My model Y leaks from the trunk and is about to go in again to see if they can fix it. Not even a first run Y either.
That's because Musk personally oversaw the design of the Cybertruck and likely rejected all pleas to make sensible decisions. Musk did not design the other models.
Just like how SpaceX and Tesla and Twitter seem like they have three different CEOs; the degree of their competency is inversely proportional to the amount of day-to-day feedback Musk has into their operations.
He was happy enough to be able to spell s3xy with those cars. Maybe they could have come up with something extremely juvenile for him to do while they designed a rivian
Like make the integrated voice-activated AI have a setting to swear at and insult you while driving
Idea: A car that detects when there's only one occupant, and shouts expletives through the audio system when the driver narrowly avoids hitting something at high speed.
Call it a model 69 and be done
Or maybe model 6/7 would be better for him nowadays
You do see glimpses of it in the other models. Eg. The removal of the indicator stalk likely saved <$100 (if that!) but it's a non-starter for many buyers. That has to be Musk's doing right?
> You do see glimpses of it in the other models. Eg. The removal of the indicator stalk likely saved <$100 (if that!) but it's a non-starter for many buyers. That has to be Musk's doing right?
"all input is error" - elon musk
wdyt? From where I'm sitting anyone with that position would deprecate the input devices...
Musk's superpower is cult-building. His fatal flaw is that he has no idea that is his superpower.
He actually shares a lot in common with his former(?) friend Kanye West. Both crave the validation of others, but when they get it, instead of being satisfied, they become even more needy and insecure. So they pursue anything except what they're actually good at because then if they fail at the thing people actually value them for, it would be too painful. And they surround themselves with yes men who tell them how great they are. All these factors make them more and more isolated and insecure. Combine that with drugs, alcohol, and sex and you have a toxic brew.
You may say this armchair analysis is unfair, but both these men have been so candid, veiled by the thinnest layer of irony, that it's impossible not to see how fragile they are.
I don't think this is unfair at all. I mean this literally has to be one of the three oldest stories ever? And I mean that literally. There is no more timeless a story than: "man gets powerful enough to eliminate negative feedback, becomes stupid/ineffective/self-damaging"
Kanye made some incredible music in his day, at least. I still listen to College Dropout and Dark Twisted Fantasy.
Kanye's beat/producer credits are also amazing.
"No idea" doesn’t sound right.
I’d say he thinks he has many superpowers, but maybe in reality just has one.
His cult is a very specific type of person. The general public finds him repulsive as demonstrated by his time in government.
He's a cult leader with surprisingly horrible political instincts
He did better at hiding his worst instincts. I honestly think the Ketamine has destroyed his ability to hide his worst instincts.
Not saying there weren't leaks that he was a huge asshole. Just saying that I could forgive people for over looking it early on.
That's a requirement, part of being in a cult is being rejected by "outsiders" so that you think you have no other options other than staying in the cult.
Classic abusive behavior.
> as demonstrated by his time in government
Without actually getting into the specific actions he took while in government, I dare say that what he did during that time was material to people's revulsion and that a different version of him who took different actions would have been differently popular.
For sure but deciding what to do is part of political instincts. He rolled in, threw some "roman salutes" fired tons of people in an insanely chaotic way while waving a chainsaw around on stage then showed up in the Whitehouse with a black eye he blamed on his toddler
Yeah, most cults are repulsive to most outsiders. Their power is completely derived from the intensity of the in-group's commitment.
I've never seen a cybertruck with a missing trim piece, and there are usually a few at my local super charger. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's certainly not some ongoing common issue like you're implying
Call the NHTSA and tell them to cancel the recall then.
The recall for a dealer-installed light bar that gets glued onto the glass windshield isn't the same as panels falling off, yes.
I don't disagree that it happens/happened, just that I disagree with the implied frequency, as I've never seen it in person and I see a lot of cybertrucks at my local chargers.
Also this recall is for the lightbar, the trim piece was recalled in March.
I dodged a bullet. I bought into the original heavy stainless steel exoskeleton concept, which they never delivered on. So they had my deposit. Then it took me a year and a half (!!) to get my deposit back from time of request, a dozen documented follow-ups on phone, email, and in-person at the stealership.
Tesla’s excuse: While they were happy to take a Canadian’s money with fully refundable deposit terms, they had not contemplated actually ever refunding a Canadian. The deposit was made by credit card. The only option offered for refund was a deposit to an American bank account.
It seems like no aspect of the Cybertruck project was done well.
"Tesla’s fix will involve an additional redundancy to keep the lightbar affixed to the windshield, should the glue fail."
It's faintly believable that the additional redundancy might involve a roll of duct tape. It's even the right color.
Then it took me a year and a half (!!) to get my deposit back from time of request
After we decided against an F-150 Lightning because it wouldn’t fit in the garage, one click of the “cancel reservation” button, and the money was back in our account within two weeks. When we were disappointed with the VW Buzz that the U. S. was getting, same deal: VW gave our money back in a few weeks.
Granted, your situation is arguably a little out-of-band if you squint really hard, but c’mon, Tesla.
Ha, I didn’t even mention that around the same time, to hedge my bets, I also had a deposit on an F-150 Lightning and had the same easy experience with a Ford refund as you did. Click.
Does Canada not have chargebacks? This seems like a clear case for one.
We sure do. And it may have been. I was too patient and also morbidly curious how and when Tesla would resolve it.
Chargebacks are not forever. I can't speak for Canada, but where I am, after certain number of days, you cannot.
What part of the stainless exoskeleton did they not deliver on?
https://www.tesla.com/learn/superior-durability-cybertruck-h...
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if promises weren't kept or expectations not met. This is the same company that has a product called Full Self Driving that cannot fully self drive.
They originally claimed the stainless steel panels would replace the internal frame and thus be more efficient to produce. But they shipped with a traditional frame
This was genuinely innovative and intriguing. Did the numbers just not work out for manufacturing or some other thing get in the way?
The way they proposed doing it was folding steel sheets into the CT structure. My guess is they were never able to produce consistent enough folds. It takes pretty precise metal working to make that work.
The “exoskeleton” part? The stainless panels are poorly glued to an aluminum frame. The frame provides the structure, the panels are load, not bearing.
In 2019, Musk asked for deposits as he told the world "We created an exoskeleton ... the body and bed on a traditional body-on-frame design don’t do anything useful. They’re dead weight."
MotorTrend describes Tesla's failure well in their Nov 2023 teardown. Read the "Does the Tesla Cybertruck Have an "Exoskeleton?" section. Spoiler: It doesn't. The stainless panels are not load-bearing. The Cybertruck has a conventional unibody chassis.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-fact-checki...
Was the concept as hideously ugly as the actual design? I still don't understand how people can drive those things in public.
The drivers probably have the mental development of a middle-schooler - these trucks are FIRE with 7-grader boys!
And all the 50+ guys who were into Stomper 4x4s as children.
Hideously ugly can grow on you. After many years of seeing them, I now covet an xB (the original design, not the bubbly redesign that didn't sell).
Not sure I'll ever appreciate a beefcake DeLorean though.
Whenever I see one in the wild, I point and laugh like Nelson from the Simpsons. Ha-ha!
I let them know I think they are number one. Choice of digit varies on my mood.
Presumably the part about it not falling apart.
https://insideevs.com/news/667723/musk-estimates-tesla-could...
Musk Estimates Tesla Could Sell 250,000-500,000 Cybertrucks Yearly
https://insideevs.com/news/766162/tesla-cybertruck-sales-q2-...
Tesla Cybertruck Sales Fall Dramatically To Their Lowest Level In A Year
Not to be deterred, the latest package has an objective of ten million robo taxis in ten years.
The issue stems from the primer applied before gluing the optional light bar to the windshield (no fasteners are used in the attachment of the light bar).
Is that typical in the industry, parts or components being glued onto an exterior surface instead of fastened?
It's not uncommon, particularly for vehicles with composite body panels. Smaller items like door trim, manufacturer logos, are primarily held on with adhesives.
Mid-size accessories like add-on spoilers on trunk lids, or other exterior styling pieces are frequently attached with adhesive.
A larger component commonly attached with adhesives are the rear fender flares on dually pickups. Very commonly these are built with a standard bed, and then the flares to cover the extra wheel width are applied with a 3M VHB-like adhesive strip.
But like anything, there is a way to do it properly, and a way to do it hacky.
Using glue in vehicle assembly is very uncommon.
Most plastic body panels are held on with conformal clips. But they couldn't do that with the metal panels of the cyber truck nor did they want visible fasteners so glue is the only option.
Glue isn't ideal because the part has to be clamped in place while the glue cures which is slow, and quality control is tough because you're doing a little chemistry experiment on your assembly line hundreds of times per day.
Normal cars have this problem with paint and quality control with paint is such a big deal that it has its own separate production line just for painting stuff pre or post assembly
Using composite panels is very uncommon in production vehicles and when they are used (for looks) traditional fasteners are used during assembly often with threaded inserts embedded in the composite panel during manufacture
I should probably clarify my comment a bit.
Glue is uncommon in most cases, particularly for body-panel mounted things like the examples I gave. Adhesive-mounted components are common, to various degrees.
Glass-mounted items are commonly glued, the most prevalent one being the knob for the rear view mirror. And "prevalent" here means "99% of anything mounted to glass in a vehicle"
Tesla is using BETASEAL [0], which is designed for adhering to glass. I'm not sure what kind of weight rating BETASEAL is approved for, it is commonly used for other applications where a decent degree of strength is expected.
[0] https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/mobilit...
The lightbars mentioned in the article were an optional non-factory addon that were installed at the Tesla dealership. The steel body panels are not glued on.
> The steel body panels are not glued on.
Its even stranger because presumably the light requires a wire for power, so using an adhesive doesn't allow them to avoid making at least 1 hole in the roof.
Perhaps it's about minimizing the installation cost at the dealership.
The irony is that you'd imagine that an off-road roof mounted light would be something that you should be able to tighten when you are ... off-road.
I guess field serviceability isn't a design goal for these "off-road" trucks, but appearing "off-road" when going glamping is.
Cybertrucks already come with a 48V 400W auxiliary power connection under the applique strip on the right side of the roof, so there was no need to make a hole in the roof.
There just isn't a lot of options other than adhesive for installing a light bar considering the windshield consumes all of the forward facing real estate (as the roof slopes back from the apex).
Love this overconfident armchair mechanical engineering and product design.
Many vehicles with light bars have them mounted onto a standoff bracket. Why not design a standoff that mounts after the apex (back sloped part), using a piece with an angle complementary to the roof slope, providing a flat surface for the light bar to mount on? Pretty straightforward and honestly exactly what I would expect as an official accessory to a $100K vehicle.
Btw, does Tesla pay you for all your white knighting?
The off road community has been complaining about "off road" vehicles that are not suitable for off road use for decades. Most off "road vehicles" are you can drive it around the house to your backyard if it isn't too muddy/steep. Anyone who really goes off road is looking for a lot of features that are hard to find in a production vehicle. (which is why they often modify production vehicles). A true off road vehicle often looks like a production off-road vehicle, but in production they do cosmetic changes to look the same as what true off-road vehicles do - but the difference cosmetic. Things like both sit high off the ground, but the off road one they look at what mechanical parts are underneath and either protect them or raise them.
> Anyone who really goes off road is looking for a lot of features that are hard to find in a production vehicle. (which is why they often modify production vehicles).
Perhaps this is something that Slate can solve better than Tesla.
Besides being all hype and no production at this particular juncture, the design of the Slate is not geared towards offroading at all.
The customizations available/planned are cosmetic things not of interest to off road. You can put in a different sound system or change the color - but off road wants things like a skid plate that can handle boulders.
The windshield itself is glued to the body on all modern cars. It makes sense to use glue when attaching things to glass.
Yes. The frame is welded, but more and more the body panels are glued. BMW has been doing this for a while. Modern adhesives are as strong as spot welds for this sort of thing.
People constantly underestimate adhesives. Properly applied wood glue is stronger than the wood itself. The problem with gluing everything together is repairability.
Adhesives also allow using thinner metal for the panels, which saves weight and cost. Metal gets harder to weld when it's thin. Though newer laser welding technologies may offer some improvement.
I think the adhesives will release with heat but honestly I'm not sure how body work is done on those.
The windshield itself is only glued in place in the vast majority of modern production cars.
3M Very High Bond tape holds many skyscraper windows in place.
Huh, checks out. Interesting!
Depends on the industry.
For car companies, no.
But as Tesla reminds us constantly, they're not a car company, they're a robotics / AI company. Those generally focus less on how to build cars.
Tons of cars made by companies other than Tesla have some parts attached by adhesives. Lots of decorative trim pieces and reflectors may be attached with adhesives instead of screws. Its not like there are a lot of screws involved in attaching windshields. There have been other companies with recalls related to adhesive failures, but it seems Tesla has adhesive failures far more frequently than others and seems to use adhesives for a lot more of their body parts.
You shouldn't be getting downvoted, you're right. Adhesives can be incredibly strong, and it's common for even larger panels to be glued on. For whatever reason a lot of British cars in particular (range rover, jaguar, etc) use bonded and riveted frames instead of welding for their aluminum framed vehicles, with lots of components just being glued on.
Windshields themselves are glued into the frame, and have been for years. They are a major part of the structure of the vehicle, as well as an important safety device, and there isn't a problem with them comining loose. Badges are attached with double sided tape, but obviously those are a lot smaller than a light bar.
https://insideevs.com/news/447279/video-new-tesla-model-y-gl...
Tesla just doesn't have a good record with adhesives.
More like tossed onto the A-pillars with glue. They don't really do "frames" anymore.
The window frame, I guess. Cars definitely still have frames, it's just integrated with the body rather than the old-fashioned ladder frames et al.
What I meant was that there's no real recess in the A pillars or front of roof for the glass to go "in" to anymore. The edge of the glass gets covered by trim or whatever so you can't see it, unlike the old days (so like 1990s down) where things used gasket.
>Is that typical in the industry, parts or components being glued onto an exterior surface instead of fastened?
Yes. If automotive OEMs can glue it they will.
It's just that other OEMs don't build uninterrupted 5ft light bars so glueing is a much less suitable (think about how much glue contact patch per amount of light bar there is and how little leverage it's mass has over the glue, contrast with normal light) solution for them.
Not to mention that the lightbar is directly in the airstream as you drive. It only has to start lifting a little and getting air underneath. Once that happens any glue joint is doomed.
I think if you did the glue joint perfectly then it would probably be fine, but impeccable QC is not a hallmark of Tesla.
I can't believe they are still selling that abomination. The styling is not the same as their rest of the lineup, which was a major mistake. I personally wouldn't want a car that relies on glue that much.
They've refreshed the 3 or Y (I'm not sure which) to look more like the Cybertruck. They look awful.
I like the glue, you can fix all these issues yourself by raiding your kids desk for some school glue :)
Cars use glue more than you'd think. They just don't usually suck at it quite so much.
One man’s abomination is another man’s ideal family car :)
There is no other consumer car that can self-drive from start to finish for an entire trip. That alone will keep me on Tesla until the others catch up. Crash tests have shown that it’s excellent at protecting its occupants, which matters to me as a father of two. The cyberpunk aesthetic, whole home battery backup, and large secured truck bed are just icing on the cake.
I had the trim glue issue fixed proactively (it’s now secured mechanically) and I don’t have a light bar so the new issue doesn’t affect me. Granted, it’s not great that they opted for glue for that use case.
> The cyberpunk aesthetic
the dystopian, authoritarian, hypercapitalist hellscape aesthetic is icing on the cake for a family vehicle?
That's a lot of your own judgment you've layered on top of it.
For a more joyful interpretation of cybertruck aesthetics, do a image search for "cybertruck trick or treat". I volunteered to provide my truck for my kid's school Halloween party and decorated it to look like the chomp chomp monster from Mario. Kids loved it.
(sure it's not cyberpunk but it's an example of how the look can be used for family friendly innocent fun)
Did you have to put protective tape over the edges? How did you avoid kids getting cut?
The frunk area where kids reached into to grab candy has no sharp edges. There are sharper obtuse angled corners at the front corners of the truck that are exposed when the frunk is open. If a kid were to run into it at speed, it would cause the same injuries as if they ran into a standard door strike plate (metal, immovable, very similar sharpness and thickness) of which my house has ~20 of them at head height for a preschooler. If I were driving at road speeds with the frunk open and hit someone, yeah that would be a pretty serious injury.
I didn't put protective tape and no kids were injured :)
Aren't Chomp Chomps round? Wouldn't a less jagged vehicle be better for this?
Let's just say it's the N64 version where there were some polygons: https://mario64hacks.fandom.com/wiki/Chain_Chomp
Here's what another cybertruck did: https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2024...
i dunno. i don't think the aesthetic exists in a vacuum and i certainly am not the first person to use those words to describe it (as a fan of the genre).
As is the "likely to hit others while self-driving"..
I don't know how any Tesla investor can justify paying anyone $1 trillion when the products he makes keep falling apart.
Making cars is hard, just ask Ford...
>As of this story's publication, Thursday, September 4, 2025, Ford has issued 109 recalls that have covered 7,871,344 vehicles. Of course, quite a few of those cars are repeat offenders, but you get the point. It's staggering.
>Of those 109 recalls, 26 of them are re-recalls. That means they're recalls on recalls Ford has already carried out,
>Read More: https://www.jalopnik.com/1958179/all-ford-vehicle-recalls-20...
What is the PE for Ford v/s the PE for Tesla.
By definition the same people propping up the stock price even with a forward PE of ~200. Lots of wishful thinking.
This always reminds me of a fragment of lost tragic ancient Greek verse, quoted only in Aristotle's Art of Rhetoric:
Often, when the gods bring great prosperity as a gift for men
They do so not out of goodwill towards them
But so that their ruin may be more conspicuous.
https://electrek.co/2025/11/13/tesla-recalls-over-10000-powe...
They've also recalled powerwalks. Tesla is great at being visionary, their Achilles heal has always been their weak manufacturing. Which makes sense, its the really hard part about being in the car or battery business.
I'd hardly call it "weak" with gigafactories setting new standards in efficiency, and Tesla being the only "recently" founded US carmaker making massive amounts of cars. All while they have more vertical integration than the competition.
Cybertrucks are for pioneers. If you want something super reliable, just get a "boring" Model Y. They've improved all parts of the design continuously, the cars are indistinguishable from the early ones when it comes to finish quality
> Cybertrucks are for pioneers.
Well, here in NJ at least, Cybertrucks are not for pioneers, but inevitably for wealth signaling of mostly clueless people to show they have cash to throw away.
There are of course many wealth signaling cars, but the Cybertruck is in a special noisome class all its own.
> If you want something super reliable, just get a "boring" Model Y
Not according to the many comments here about Model Y.
What's unreliable about the Model Y, other than some fit-and-finish issues? Does it have battery failures or mechanical/electronic problems?
Most MY and M3 owners I have talked to rave about their cars and have very high customer loyalty.
Cybertrucks are for pioneers. If you want something super reliable, just get a "boring" Model Y.
What? You think people are paying that kind of money to be beta-test a car?
> Tesla’s fix will involve an additional redundancy to keep the lightbar affixed to the windshield, should the glue fail.
Good news - it only affects 6000 vehicles with the optional lightbar which is dealer installed. Bad news - Tesla finds it ok to let its dealers do glued lightbar installations and can't really fix the glue failing part so they are adding redundancy.
I do not like the Cybertruck, the company that makes it, nor the man who owns said company.
That being said, I still appreciate seeing them out on the road as an example of what's effectively a concept car that made it to production. It also looks cool and stands apart aesthetically from pretty much everything else on the market, even if the giant 1-piece wiper and black plastic wheel well trim pieces mar the clean lines of the original design.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with the data to say whether or not Cybertrucks or Teslas have significantly more design problems or QC issues than other manufacturers, or if news outlets just latch onto the stories more because Musk's public behavior makes him such a lightning rod for controversy.
Regardless, I think the Cybertruck will go down in history as an iconic car and a symbol of the 2020s, even if it was an objectively bad product (think DeLorean).
The only reason any non-car enthusiasts remember the DeLorean is because it was cast in a popular movie franchise.
> It also looks cool
No. No, it does not.
> "Tesla Service will inspect the light bar and install an additional mechanical attachment or replace the light bar using tape to adhere the light bar to the windshield as well as an additional mechanical attachment as necessary, free of charge."
Tape? The fix is to add some tape? At least it's free...
Go watch Mat Alexander rebuild super cars and you will see things like parts attached with glue and fenders shimmed with plastic inserts and welds that look like a drunk did them.
To be fair that is on brand
Been seeing tons of Cybertrucks on the road. I have to admit that they seem to have become a lot more popular than I expected.
I wonder if this extremely dangerours recall was posted on HN...
>Ford Recalls 29,500 F-150 Lightning EVs for Loss of Steering Risk
1. yes, just do a search: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44162184
Nice, thx!
Looking at the actual service manual, there appear to be no fewer than 10 warnings related to the use of the primer alone. There is also a separate step involving cleaning with IPA. This procedure seems like it belongs in a chemistry lab more than a car shop. I can't imagine the average mechanic not fucking this up in some important way.
I wish they made the Cyber(mini)van instead. oh well
It's actually not a bad truck if you bought one in the past half year or so. They worked out a majority of the kinks. FSD works really darn good as well.
So the TLDR is an optional non-factory lightbar addon that was added to the top of about 6100 Cybertrucks used an improper adhesive to secure the bar.
It's a beta release product. Of course it has problems. I don't think any of Cybertruck's growing pains are remarkable.
IIRC, Tesla skipped the industry's normal typical period of real world testing for new platforms. That should have scared off most buyers.
--
Cybertruck should have been rolled out like the Roadster. Exclusive, prestige, wrap-around customer service. The superfans would happily pay to participate.
There's always a (modest) market for niche vehicles, like the Cybertruck. eg Subaru Brat, VW The Thing (name?).
--
Cybertruck has so much innovation, cool tech. 48V, drive-by-wire, the modular internet bus thing, 4 wheel steering, even bigger castings, etc.
Tesla was (initially) right to de-risk those things by using them in a (much) lower volume vehicle. And field test everything ahead of the high volume Model 2 / Robotaxi.
--
The big, IMHO, mistake was juicing the stock price by hyping Cybertruck as Tesla's next home run.
oNe TrIlLiOn DoLlArS
This is real-time aerodynamics and weight reduction. Elon is 10 steps ahead of you plebes.
Now check how many recalls there are with companies like Ford. Recalls are pretty much standard in the vehicle industry.
> Now check how many recalls there are with companies like Ford. Recalls are pretty much standard in the vehicle industry.
As of this story's publication, Thursday, September 4, 2025, Ford has issued 109 recalls that have covered 7,871,344 vehicles. Of course, quite a few of those cars are repeat offenders, but you get the point. It's staggering.
Of those 109 recalls, 26 of them are re-recalls. That means they're recalls on recalls Ford has already carried out
What a stupid car.
Its american car, whatever that means. Rest of the world considers it properly fugly and most western countries ban it due to lack of any pedestrian protection.
Most Americans think it's fugly too
If you think the car is stupid, you haven't seen the company CEO.
If you think their CEO is stupid, you haven't seen all the other company CEOs.
Can it self drive through a lake yet?
I guess if you get out to push it is technically driverless
It can wade through about 2.5 feet of water.
does that require the package that allows the truck to function as a boat?
