HNNewShowAskJobs
Built with Tanstack Start
Reverse math shows why hard problems are hard(quantamagazine.org)
112 points by gsf_emergency_6 10 hours ago | 20 comments
  • emil-lp6 hours ago

    Whenever the pigeon-hole principle is name dropped, we should also drop Dijkstra's commentary The undeserved status of the pigeon-hole principle.

    https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD109...

    • qsort3 hours ago |parent

      I love Dijkstra's writing, but I don't think this is his strongest piece. In general parlance, when we say "by piegonhole" we mean "any variant of it". I'd still call what he's doing "piegonhole" lol. You can even further generalize it, e.g. by making expected value arguments.

      This is not uncommon: we can say that "by the fundamental theorem of algebra" two polynomials of degree N that agree on N+1 points are identically equal. "By induction" includes Cauchy induction, sometimes with "this and that are the same" we mean "up to isomorphism" and so on.

      The advice he ends on is extremely solid, though:

        The moral of the story is that we are much better off with the neutral, general standard procedure: name the unknown(s) so that you can formalize all conditions given or to be established and simplify by formula manipulation.
      
      The math will always math.
    • peacebeard6 hours ago |parent

      Wow. I thought the metaphor was stupid when I was taught this in college, and only now, decades later, I find out Dijkstra agreed.

      • badmonster3 hours ago |parent

        Interesting! Were there other examples from your course that had similar delays in insight? What changed your perspective?

    • paulddraper5 hours ago |parent

      The first time I saw the Pigeonhole Principle was in the following:

      Problem: A plane has every point colored red, blue, or yellow. Prove that there exists a rectangle whose vertices are the same color.

      Solution: Consider a grid of points, 4 rows by 82 columns. There are 3^4=81 possible color patterns of columns, so by the Pigeonhole Principle, at least two columns have the same color pattern. Also by the Pigeonhole Principle, each column of 4 points must have at least two points of the same color. The two repeated points in the two repeated columns form a rectangle of the same color. QED.

      The Pigeonhole Principle is very neat. It would be hard not to use it for the proof.

      Partly that article argues against proof by contradiction which does seem to be overused.

      • moi23882 hours ago |parent

        Unless by plane they mean airplane, since in curved 3d surface this is not automatically given to be true.

  • degamad9 hours ago

    Specifically, reverse math (a subset of metamathematics which looks at swapping axioms and theorems) allows us to show that some hard problems are equivalent to each other.

    EDIT: I think this line is the most telling:

    > But he cautioned that the reverse mathematics approach may be most useful for revealing new connections between theorems that researchers have already proved. "It doesn’t tell us much, as far as we can say, about the complexity of statements which we do not know how to prove."

    So, at this point, it helps us understand more about problems we already understand a little about, but nothing yet about new problems.

    • gsf_emergency_68 hours ago |parent

      That's par for a field whose name seems to have been inspired by "reverse-engineering", which by construction doesn't try to understand products that have not yet reached the market :)

      • eru5 hours ago |parent

        Well, but you can also reverse engineer nature (or the output of gradient descent) or the products of an adversary.

  • dvh3 hours ago

    Backwards game of life: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8pjrVbdafY

    • froobiusan hour ago |parent

      I couldn't see any citations or references in that video or its description. It presents it as him solving the problem himself, but I'm sure other people have written about solving the Game of Life in reverse with SAT solvers prior to this...

      Edit: here's a paper on it from 2006, https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-76928-6_...

  • Bankq9 hours ago

    The approach reminds me of NP-Completeness (Computational harness vs mathematical-proving hardness). Am I over-simplifying?

    • logician1277 hours ago |parent

      You’re right on the money. It’s intimately tied to computability theory, complexity theory’s more abstract sibling (I.e. the Halting problem and further Turing degrees). Both rely on the core techniques of diagonalization and reductions. The meat of it can differ a lot because estimating time bounds and determining logical equivalence rapidly become different problem spaces, so it’s not like results in one are really applicable to the other. But a researcher in one will usually be well versed in the other.

    • throwaway815234 hours ago |parent

      I would say that's on the wrong track and that "hard" is the wrong term for what reverse math (RM) tells you about problems. RM studies what axioms you need to prove a given theorem, but it's more like showing that "to pound in a nail of size X you need a hammer of size Y and a smaller hammer just can't do it", than saying pounding in the nail is difficult or complicated. Once you have the big enough hammer, pounding the nail can be very simple.

  • zkmon5 hours ago

    Overall complexity (work required) is a conserved quantity. You can move it around and claim that a new algorithm has reduced the complexity, but in essence it has shifted the complexity elsewhere.

    Also, whether some problem has polynomial complexity or exponential complexity depends on what you consider as the problem space. Complexity of b^c is polynomial if b is the problem space and exponential if c is the problem space.

    Complexity of traveling salesman problem depends on what you consider as the problem space - number of cities or number of connections between cities.

    • voxl4 hours ago |parent

      I'm not sure if you're just choosing intentionally obtuse verbiage or if you're actually saying something completely incoherent.

      "Overall Complexity" is a meaningless term without you defining it. I suppose you mean that there is some lower bound limit to the amount of work relative to a model of computation, but this is a trivial statement, because the limit is always at least no work.

      We have many problems where we don't know the least upper bound, so even an interesting formulation of your idea is not necessarily true: work need not be conserved at the least upper bound, because reaching the bound may not be possible and epsilon improvement might always be possible.

      Finally, algorithmic complexity is the wrong analogy for reverse mathematics anyway.

      • zkmon3 hours ago |parent

        To give an example, we consider that binary search requires less work than a linear search. But there are costs and usecase considerations involved. Insertion of new recod need to use binary search to keep the data sorted. Also if the number of lookups is far less than number of records, the overall cost is more than appending and linear search. That's what I mean by by moving the complexity around.

        A problem scenario doesn't have absolute characteristics. It's relative to your way of looking at it, and your definition of a problem.

    • qsort3 hours ago |parent

      > Complexity of traveling salesman problem depends on what you consider as the problem space - number of cities or number of connections between cities.

      lmao what?

  • boie00255 hours ago

    I'm pretty far away from learning about these things in school, but this made me wonder on the connection between the mentioned communication complexity lower bound and special relativity limits on how fast information can travel.

  • letmetweakit6 hours ago

    The Travelling Salesman Problem in 1 dimension, on a line, is trivial, I wonder what the connection is between the dimensions and the hardness of problems like this.