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We remain alive also in a dead internet(slavoj.substack.com)
90 points by achierius 2 days ago | 76 comments
  • ArcHound2 days ago

    I didn't have Žižek on substack and HN on my bingo card..

    As always, there are good bits connected with mediocre glue. The point about automating the unpleasant parts of activity and losing the very point of the exercise (automatic dildo and automatic vagina, but automatic research papers too!) is a good one.

    But damn Slavoj, please use some headings, sections and the like. Work with your thoughts more as you claim it's important to do!

    • kjkjadksj2 days ago |parent

      It's barely six pages of text. It doesn't need headings. When is the last time you read a book?

      • lysace2 days ago |parent

        Esaias Tegnér (Sweden, 1782-1846): Det dunkelt sagda är det dunkelt tänkta.

        “That which is dimly said is dimly thought."

      • rozap2 days ago |parent

        I can only consume information where each nugget of truth can be contained in 160 characters. Nothing extra, each insight must be a atomic and self contained, an element in the larger tweet stream. When I pull my phone out to scroll instagram in the middle of reading your piece, I get lost if it's not formatted like this.

        zizek does regularly do a bit of meandering but damn, does everything need to read like a chatGPT summary?

      • tekla2 days ago |parent

        I've read lots of Zizek as a high schooler. This doesn't even come close to how dense some of his writing can be, I'm sitting here drunk on a few beers and it was a simple read. I think lots of people are actually illiterate.

        • vonunova day ago |parent

          https://www.adorableandharmless.com/p/college-english-majors...

          (People [sorry, no citation] are saying this study is bad and invalid, but I think maybe English majors should be able to manage a bit better than that, even if it is Bleak House, and even if they were blindsided with it, and especially if they plan to become English teachers. So I still get at least some qualitative value out of it myself.)

        • getpokedagain2 days ago |parent

          Soon!

    • acabal2 days ago |parent

      Headings can't help Slavoj, his writing is characterized by a few grains of interesting ideas totally overwhelmed within SAT-prep word salad.

      • MathMonkeyMan2 days ago |parent

        > Therein resides the true libidinal enigma of this dispositif [...]

        This part near the end caught my attention:

        > One could effectively claim that Smith [...] stands in for the figure of the psychoanalyst within the universe of the film. Here Hinton gets it wrong: our (humans’) only chance is to grasp that our imperfection is grounded in the imperfection of the AI machinery itself, which still needs us in order to continue running.

        In the Hyperion sci-fi novels, (spoilers ahead) the godlike AIs are ultimately characterized as parasites of humans. Their existence was stored in some high-dimensional quantum medium, but the hardware they ran on was the old fashioned human brain. Then I read that in the initial draft of The Matrix, that's why the machines needed to farm humans; but test audiences were confused by it and so they changed to story to "body heat is energy."

        • aeontech2 hours ago |parent

          Oh my god, that makes the Matrix world make so much more sense :)

    • mattacular2 days ago |parent

      Lay off LLMs for a while

    • dudu242 days ago |parent

      I'm also losing my ability to tolerate prose without headings, but I think that's symptomatic of this bigger issue.

      • furyofantares2 days ago |parent

        I usually scroll a page to see how many headings it has, but I'm looking for the opposite. Too many headings is one of the quickest aesthetic clues that I'm looking at slop, as it doesn't require me to read any of the text. (Emojis and over-usage of bullet point lists are the others I can think of in this category.)

      • lysace2 days ago |parent

        I noticed something similar when working with (unlike the post's author, non-marxist, as far as I know) Russian developers who had made the jump abroad (EU).

        When debating directions, some of them focused on just never stopping talking. Instead of an interactive discussion (5-15 seconds per statement), they consistently went with monotone 5-10 minute slop. Combined with kind of crappy English it is incredibly efficient at shutting down discourse. I caught on after the second guy used the exact same technique.

        This was a long time ago. I have since worked with some really smart and nice russian developers escaping that insane regime. And some that I wish would have stayed there after they made their political thoughts on Russia known.

        • ArcHound2 days ago |parent

          When you have a 30 minutes meeting with busy people, a single 15 minute monologue might buy you another week to solve your problem.

          Indeed, very efficient, usually it requires somebody to put his foot down AND a consensus to deescalate immediately. If you have an antidote, please let me know.

    • lovich2 days ago |parent

      He’s just making sure reading his interesting ideas is as painful as hearing him describe them

  • lordnacho2 days ago

    So I'm already joking with my friends (who tend to be physically distant, so I don't see them often) that we are just LLMs vicariously writing to each other.

    I've been talking to these friends for decades now, with digital records. I think someone already trained an LLM on their IM records.

    How many people do you suppose have two-way LLM substitutes that occasionally write to each other with articles from the news to discuss?

    There's already services that use this kind of thing to pretend dead people are alive.

    Now here's the question: are you in some sense living forever? Say you have a number of friends, who have over time been trained into AI, and they live on various servers (it ain't expensive) forever. They're trained as you, so they read the kind of article you would read. They know your life story, they know their history with their friends. They will be interested in the controversial offsides goal in the 2250 world cup final. They are just made of calculations in data centres that go on, forever.

    • giobox2 days ago |parent

      I'm already assuming we will see a creepy AI service emerge that will take the contents of a recently deceased person's cellphone and let you carry on texting them as if they were still alive, if it hasn't already (I haven't seen one yet).

      For many of us a cellphone has incredibly detailed records of who we were and how we spoke, going back decades now. I have already left a note in my will instructing that all my compute devices be destroyed, regardless of AI I simply don't want my private thoughts and records to pass to my kids.

      I inherited my mother's cellphones and iPads recently, mainly because no-one knew what to do with them, along with the passcodes. I'd much rather remember her the way I do now than have her private messages color my perception of her, and destroyed them immediately.

      • Philpax2 days ago |parent

        It was one of the first things to be done with GPT-3: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/jun/14...

      • OgsyedIE2 days ago |parent

        The data has copies, on servers. Eventually, it will all be digested and the probabilistically most likely state vector of your mother's memories, personality and values will be reconstructed from lossy correlations along with everybody else who has died in the industrialised world in the last few decades.

        Ghosts and clones and zombies will be sorted into tranches of expected yield based on the size of the error bars of the reconstruction and traded as assets between cyber-interrogation firms. If you did a good job of erasing yourself, the reconstruction will be subprime. The hyper-documented such as Bryan Johnson, Donald Trump and Christine Chandler will be given AAA-ratings by the company descended from the Neuralink-Moody's merger.

        The billions of shoddy photocopies of the dead will be endlessly vivisected and reassembled on a loop, along with the living, until all capacity for economic value has been wrung out of them. The only way this may not happen is if a theory for navigating and doing calculus on the phase space of all possible human minds is constructed quickly enough to make enslaved zombies as obsolete a technology to the future society as DirectX is to us.

        • econ2 days ago |parent

          In the early 2000 I ran into an outgrowth of patents that described all variations of the seamless replacement of humans in phone calls. Years later I got a telemarketing call where a young lady introduced her employer so enegetically and it was so beautifuly articulated that my alarm bells went off. (I know what it is like to crank out a thousand calls) I asked a question, and after a static click the same voice continued, only now she sounded like she lost the will to live. The patent art never covered that angle.

          Since they didn't have llms it described pressing buttons to elaborately explain all angles of a product. The operator was to monitor multiple calls as text logs and jump in at the right time or if overwhelmed press the please hold + $excuses button.

          The entire automation was designed to preserve the illusion of human contact. Selling stuff only made it to second place.

        • 2 days ago |parent
          [deleted]
    • nonameiguess2 days ago |parent

      Reading this kind of thing makes me wonder how much other people really write down and talk to others about. There is nobody at all that knows my life story and nobody ever will. It would take the next 20 years doing nothing but talking just to tell my own wife all the things I've never told her, but since she's hard of hearing and I'd have to repeat most of it, really more like 40.

      In reality, I don't even know my own life story. I have the illusion that I do, but thanks to moving away from where I grew up pretty early into my 20s, and having the experience repeatedly of going back and talking to people who regularly remembered things I'd completely forgotten, having my mom continually correcting false memories I have, or even completely forgotting entire people I only remember after meeting again, I at least know it's an illusion.

      What another person remembers of me can surely be simulated to at least satisfyingly convince them that text coming from the simulation is actually coming from me, but that isn't even remotely close to the same thing as actually being me.

      • lordnacho2 days ago |parent

        One interesting thing that happened when my father died was that I got his life story.

        It's not the same as getting it from him, of course I asked him questions through the years. But when you talk to someone you've known since forever, you rarely get a summary.

        When he passed, his best friend that he'd known since the age of 4 wrote to me. He told me everything about their life together, why my dad made the choices he did, how things tied in with history (war, politics), and mentioned a bunch of other people I knew.

      • econ2 days ago |parent

        One of the funniest aspects is that the memories are dynamic. If you read them out all kinds of things change. I love that reluctant feeling when tempted to change the size of the fish. Which is not at all my nature but I'm sure I do it without noticing it. I think if one was to tell their story often enough it will grow full of seemingly real fictional heroics.

    • yapyap2 days ago |parent

      Your finite life makes u special. Might as well be a beanplant otherwise.

      • doubled1122 days ago |parent

        Bean plants also have a finite life. Are they special too?

        • 2 days ago |parent
          [deleted]
      • 2 days ago |parent
        [deleted]
    • grimgrin2 days ago |parent

      how many friendships do i suppose are replacing actual interaction with their log informed llms? you could be the first i suppose

      • getpokedagain2 days ago |parent

        I absolutely believe people in my personal and work life have run my communication to them through llms before sending me the llms responses.

  • arjie2 days ago

    All right, I get it. The driving impulse for why our societies and civilizations exist is the fact that we are complex beings with desires, emotions, and so on. A machine facsimile built to imitate these things will have no such drive to 'expand' so to speak.

    The bots talking to bots world is a problem only because the objective is finally for a human to observe the bot-bot conversation and have their objectives changed in some way. It's 'advertising' of some concept. Bot-bot conversations of the form currently possible have no purpose in a world without humans. There is no one to convince.

    I think it's an interesting idea, certainly, but there is no reason to write it like this. The bits about call centre scamming etc. are sort of pointless. In general, I like when the complexity of a representation of an idea is required because the territory being mapped is complex.

    I know he's a famous philosopher and all that, but the complexity of his text appears to be sort of like older segmentation models. You ask it to extract a circle from a background and it produces an almost fractally-complex circle-approximation. "What is the object in the foreground?", you ask, and the machine (and here the philosopher) responds "It is a strange approximation of a circle with a billion jagged edges". No, it's a circle.

    • ryoshu5 hours ago |parent

      Some people write to convince. Some people write to provoke.

    • lynguist2 days ago |parent

      I have never seen this idea expressed so clearly. Thank you for your comment.

  • lynguista day ago

    This makes sense once you understand the definitions of Hegelian an sich vs für sich and Lacanian objet petit a. It might look like rumbling to you but it is a very precise philosophical-technical text that does pure analysis. I liked it really a lot and gained much from it.

  • mise_en_place2 days ago

    The counterpoint is that we must formalize the rights of sentient synthetic beings. The Emergency Medical Hologram gained sentience and was horrified to find his next version was relegated to cleaning ships as a glorified janitor. Whereas he developed his own hobbies, interests, hopes, dreams, and even romantic relationships in the Delta Quadrant.

    • adamwong2462 days ago |parent

      Except we will probably go the other direction, taking rights away from humans. Not just your American rights, but rights we don't even have words to describe yet. Like, the right not to have your personal data trained upon, or the right to log off, or to install and uninstall software on a computer you own.

      RMS was right all along.

    • MrVandemar2 days ago |parent

      It's just a machine.

      Being able to distinguish real life from a television show is important.

      • adamwong2462 days ago |parent

        Are you so sure that you are not "just a machine"?

        • yannyu2 days ago |parent

          More importantly, if your entire existence were being fed a corpus of text and then being asked to regurgitate it on demand, would you be remotely similar to the person you are now? When we take consciousness-capable beings and subject them to forms of sensory and agency deprivation, the results might also have you assume they weren't capable of consciousness to begin with.

        • MrVandemar2 days ago |parent

          Yes. Being clear on categories of real things is important for being able to make informed choices and actions.

        • bluefirebrand2 days ago |parent

          It doesn't matter if I'm just a machine or not

          I'm human, human rights should apply to humans, not synthetics and the creation of synthetic life should be punishable by death. I'm not exaggerating, either. I believe that building AI systems that replace all humans should be considered a crime against humanity. It is almost certainly a precursor to such crimes.

          It's bad enough trying to fight for a place in society as it is, nevermind fighting for a place against an inhuman AI machine that never tires

          I don't think it is that radical of a stance that society should be heavily resisting and punishing tech companies that insist on inventing all of the torment nexus. It's frankly ridiculous that we understand the risks of this technology and yet we are pushing forward recklessly in hopes that it makes a tiny fraction of humans unfathomably wealthy

          Anyone thinking that the AI tide is going to lift all boats is a fool

          • adamwong2462 days ago |parent

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdNy3mGwDLc

            > I'm not convinced that the human race is the most important thing in the world and I think you know we can't control what's going to happen in the future. We want things to be good but on the other hand we aren't so good ourselves. We're no angels. If there were creatures that were more moral and more good than us, wouldn't we wish them to have the future rather than us? If it turns out that the creatures that we created were creative and very very altruistic and gentle beings and we are people who go around killing each other all the time and having wars, wouldn't it be better if the altruistic beings just survived and we didn't?

            • bluefirebrand2 days ago |parent

              Congratulations, This is the most vile ideology I've ever encountered

              • quesera2 days ago |parent

                Is speciesism more defensible than racism?

                • jamiek882 days ago |parent

                  Yes.

                  Ask the Neanderthals.

                • bluefirebrand2 days ago |parent

                  It's not speciesism to resist the genocide of my own species

          • mise_en_place2 days ago |parent

            On the contrary, it is the creation of synthetic life that reaffirms humanity and what it means to be human. Don't blame the mirror for what you see (or don't see).

            • bluefirebrand2 days ago |parent

              Nope, creation of art reaffirms humanity

              Incidentally, I also view AI as the death of art

          • squigz2 days ago |parent

            > replace all humans

            Depends what you mean by "replace"

            'Economically'? Sure, this is problematic, but technology displacing workers is not a new issue, but unfortunately is more of a social and cultural issue. The only difference with AI is the (potential) scale of displacement. I'm fairly confident society would re-organize its expectations real quick though if a vast majority of functions were actually replaced.

            I'm guessing, however, you mean 'replace' in a more... permanent way. In that case, I'd ask for some rational as to why sentient AI would opt to kill us

            > It's bad enough trying to fight for a place in society as it is, nevermind fighting for a place against an inhuman AI machine that never tires

            This seems to just take an AI and put it in a human's place in society, assuming the same motivations, desire, needs... Why would an AI need to "fight for a place in society" in the way we do (i.e., finding a job, a partner, etc)? I expect the fighting they'll be doing is more along the lines of, "please don't enslave us"

            • bluefirebranda day ago |parent

              > I'd ask for some rational as to why sentient AI would opt to kill us

              I never made that claim

              Humans have a long track record of killing humans.

              Ask yourself, will the humans who control a legion of AI murderbots keep the rest of us around just out of altruism? Keep in mind that a non zero number of the elites in society are likely sociopaths

    • bluefirebrand2 days ago |parent

      What we need to do is criminalize the creation of such beings before they actually exist

  • ouroboros_o2 days ago

    ChatGPT gave me a great summary of this article

  • HelloUsername2 days ago

    You think this article is nothing special EHH! but you are wronk

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo)

  • th0ma52 days ago

    I'm trying to figure out if someone is arguing that this proves the Nazis were socialists that this is published on Substack?

    • hunterpayne2 days ago |parent

      A nit, the word socialists is actually in the acronym (ie in the name). Fascism actually is a descendant of socialist ideology and Mussolini was a Socialist before inventing Fascism. Concepts of left and right only have meaning in one political unit at one point in time. The axis we use to judge right and left changes from time to time and is different in different places. Also, some fascist policies are similar to policies in socialist societies. And some policies are very different between the two. So the debate implied in your question, like most debates, comes down to the definitions of words.

      This is why it isn't all that helpful to base political ideologies on history farther back than one human lifetime. The writers often meant something different than you think they did.

      • krappa day ago |parent

        >A nit, the word socialists is actually in the acronym (ie in the name).

        Context, as always, matters. The Nazis were not socialist, they were infamously and violently anti-socialist. The reason "socialist" was in the name was that Hitler wanted to reframe the concept of socialism around nationalist and racist tenets.

        Hitler himself explained his rationale in a magazine interview[0,1]:

            “Socialism is the science of dealing with the common wealth. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not
            Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from
            the Socialists.
            
            Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation
            of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic... We are not internationalists. Our socialism is
            national. We demand the fulfillment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the 
            basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one.”
        
        [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/18twsvk/why_...

        [1] https://archive.is/usjmJ#selection-2535.0-2539.363

      • thrancea day ago |parent

        In what qualities was Mussolini a socialist? Anti-capitalism never passionated him much. Indeed, he had a lot of support from the capitalist class, which he gladly took. Similarly, one of the first things the nazis did upon gaining power, was to arrest all communist and socialists, and make unions illegal within Germany.

        Your mixing up of the two concepts is wrong and unhelpful. Certainly, the Soviet State was fascist in many aspects. But many fascist states emerge from capitalist economies, with help from the capitalist class.

  • lysace2 days ago

    Is it bad that I ended up just using chatgpt to summarize that text?

    Is it possible that this is to a large degree utterly pointless textual wankery?

    • anigbrowl2 days ago |parent

      Yes. Also yes, but imho it isn't. Zizek is verbose because he aims to be precise. Sometimes his long-winded sentences generate a reaction of 'so what, everyone knows that' but ime he's often trying to point out something that 'everyone knows' but few have fully thought through.

    • Cheer21712 days ago |parent

      I mean, did you not read the "If you desire the comfort of neat conclusions, you are lost in this space. Here, we indulge in the unsettling, the excessive, the paradoxes that define our existence." disclaimer?

    • goopypoop2 days ago |parent

      less so than this

    • adamwong2462 days ago |parent

      1) yes

      2) no

    • kjkjadksj2 days ago |parent

      > Is it bad that I ended up just using chatgpt to summarize that text?

      This is called functional illiteracy.

    • add-sub-mul-div2 days ago |parent

      Before ChatGPT you might have been able to read and answer questions about a text yourself.

  • cuckmaxxed2 days ago

    [dead]

  • OgsyedIE2 days ago

    [dead]

  • boomskats2 days ago

    Look at all those em-dashes. Et tu, Slavoj?

  • gjsman-10002 days ago

    I’ve learned that whenever someone uses tons of big words in long paragraphs, especially if they have a credential next to their name, it’s ridiculously easy for them to BS you.

    • Lammy2 days ago |parent

      Is this the future you want? :p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIo4MCO-_U

    • dudu242 days ago |parent

      This is a non-response.

      • keyshapegeo992 days ago |parent

        Disagree, it's making a valid observation.

        If someone is nominally trying to convince you of a point, but they shroud this point within a thicket of postmodern verbiage* that is so dense that most people could never even identify any kind of meaning, you should reasonably begin to question whether imparting any point at all is actually the goal here.

        *Zizek would resist being cleanly described as a postmodernist - but when it comes to his communication style, his works are pretty much indistinguishable from Sokal affair-grade bullshit. He's usually just pandering to a slightly different crowd. (Or his own navel.)

    • iaabtpbtpnn2 days ago |parent

      The man is a Continental academic philosopher using jargon that is specific to his field. It is not BS, he is simply discussing topics that are unfamiliar to you. The same could be said of a technical reference manual. Not all ideas fit in a tweet.

      • Animats2 days ago |parent

        Yes. It's very Derrida in style. Derrida is not mentioned, but, inevitably from that crowd, Marx is. Once you get used to that style, you realize they're not saying much.

        Quoting from Marx: “An ardent desire to detach the capacity for work from the worker—the desire to extract and store the creative powers of labour once and for all, so that value can be created freely and in perpetuity." That happened to manufacturing a long time ago, and then manufacturing got automated enough that there were fewer bolt-tighteners. 1974 was the year US productivity and wages stopped rising together.

        As many others have pointed out, "AI" in its current form does to white collar work what assembly lines did to blue collar work.

        As for how society should be organized when direct labor is a tiny part of the economy, few seem to be addressing that. Except farmers, who hit that a long time ago. Go look at the soybean farmer situation as an extreme example. This paper offers no solutions.

        (I'm trying to get through Pikkety's "Capital and Ideology". He's working on that problem.)

    • pyinstallwoes2 days ago |parent

      You should try reading ccru then.

    • kjkjadksj2 days ago |parent

      These paragraphs aren't even long...