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US issues security NOTAM for Venezuelan airspace(flightradar24.com)
36 points by 8ig8 a day ago | 23 comments
  • JumpCrisscrossa day ago

    Do we have another war in post-WWII history where a credible theory for its genesis is a leader trying to distract from a scandal?

    Closest I can come to is the Falklands War.

    • kimixaa day ago |parent

      Depends on how you define "war", but the initial invasion of Crimea by Russia in 2014 and Israel's strikes on Iran this year may count - both were closely aligned to rising domestic pressure on the leaders at the time.

      • labcomputera day ago |parent

        For the Russian invasion of Ukraine, that may have had more to do with Ukraine’s budget and economy of the time: Ukraine had a massive trade deficit with Russia in the 2000’s and early 2010’s, and the government was running a huge deficit.

        Faced with cuts to state pensions, Ukraine started using gas from the pipeline which connects Russia to Western Europe, without paying for it. That understandably annoyed Russia (that’s not a justification for war!), who couldn’t turn off gas to Ukraine without also turning it off for their main customers in Western Europe.

        These events seemed to have kicked off the norstream pipeline (legal) and invasion of Crimea (illegal).

        Here is a contemporary article less than a year before the Crimean invasion: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/29/russia-ukraine...

        See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Pact#Effects

        • reeredfdfdfa day ago |parent

          The pipeline thing may have annoyed Russia, but it was the Maidan revolution which resulted in the invasion of Crimea. Russia simply doesn't like having neighbours that aren't its puppets. When Ukrainians got rid of Yanukovych, Ukraine stopped being a Russian puppet, which annoyed Putin very much.

          Russia has a long, long history of being mean to its neighbours that choose to pursue independent policy. As an example, Finland and Baltic states have been subject to countless of intentional airspace violations since the collapse of the Soviet Union, even before the Ukrainian war.

        • kimixaa day ago |parent

          My belief was that many analysts at the time considered that the justification rather than the cause, as alluded to by the Ukraine counter claims in the guardian article.

          Similarly, Trump isn't saying he wants to invade Venezuela to distract from domestic issues, but it's all about the "drug boats".

      • JumpCrisscrossa day ago |parent

        > the initial invasion of Crimea by Russia in 2014 and Israel's strikes on Iran this year may count - both were closely aligned to rising domestic pressure on the leaders at the time

        I don't know enough about what prefaced Putin's moves into Crimea and Ukraine larger. I'd describe Israel's recent wars as being closer to a WWI-esque powderkeg strike inasmuch as without the October 7 attack, none of this would have happened (when and how it did).

        What's unique, here, is that it's practically entirely domestic elements which are driving Trump into Venezuela. I can think of historical examples. But they're all from the 19th century or classical history.

      • crazybonkersaia day ago |parent

        It is a far stretch to call annexation/reunification (pick whichever you like) an invasion. There was no fighting and it went almost with no violence. There was a swift independence referendum followed by a decree to join Russian Federation. Majority of Crimean population voted in favor, as later confirmed by independent gallups. Anyone thinks that Crimeans want to rejoin Ukraine is delusional.

        • JumpCrisscrossa day ago |parent

          > stretch to call annexation/reunification (pick whichever you like) an invasion. There was no fighting

          Invasion is occupation. Fighting isn't a pre-requisite. Entire colonies were gained in the age of empire through gunboat diplomacy [1]. We even extend the metaphor to invasive species.

          > Majority of Crimean population voted in favor

          Correct.

          > Anyone thinks that Crimeans want to rejoin Ukraine is delusional

          With present tense, unknown.

          More generally, Xinjiang would vote for independence from China, J&K from India and Siberia from Russia [1]. Local self-determination isn't a maximalist proxy advocated for by anyone but anarchists.

          [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy#Notable_exam...

          [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Republic

          • crazybonkersai21 hours ago |parent

            Why stop with these examples though? By the same rhetoric, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Finnish Lapland, Venice, Eastern Germany, Quebec, Hawaii and Texas are all occupied either by force or gunboat diplomacy.

            • JumpCrisscross18 hours ago |parent

              > Why stop with these examples though?

              Because it’s a long list and I was being polite.

    • DrScientist20 hours ago |parent

      Is it to distract from a scandal or is it an escalation of a long pursued strategy to gain control of Venezuelan oil?

      Feels like the latter. Remember during his first term Trump had John Bolton try various coup schemes.

      https://archive.ph/C7lrm

      Also Trump on the same subject: https://x.com/Acyn/status/1667682589333659648

    • djohnstona day ago |parent

      If you don’t mind could you briefly summarise your view on the Falklands War? Was it a distraction for UK or Argentinian leadership?

      • JumpCrisscrossa day ago |parent

        > Was it a distraction for UK or Argentinian leadership?

        "In the period leading up to the war—and, in particular following the transfer of power between the military dictators General Jorge Rafael Videla and General Roberto Eduardo Viola late in March 1981—Argentina had been in the midst of devastating economic stagnation and large-scale civil unrest against the National Reorganisation Process, the military junta that had been governing the country since 1976.

        In December 1981 there was a further change in the Argentine military regime, bringing to office a new junta headed by General Leopoldo Galtieri (acting president), Air Brigadier Basilio Lami Dozo and Admiral Jorge Anaya. Anaya was the main architect and supporter of a military solution for the long-standing claim over the islands, expecting that the United Kingdom would never respond militarily."

        [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War#Prelude

        • djohnstona day ago |parent

          Thanks! I probably should have read the damn wiki haha.

    • blitzara day ago |parent

      Probably every war ... It worked so well we dont know what the scandal was.

    • mc32a day ago |parent

      Do you mean Maduro threatening to invade Guyana? I think that's just saber rattling neither the US nor his southern cone neighbors, even the socialists, would allow it.

      • Refreeze5224a day ago |parent

        He means the opposite, Trump threatening Venezuela because he needs a distraction from his presence in the Epstein files.

        • mc3221 hours ago |parent

          Well, there were military strikes in to the balkans shortly after the Lewinsky affair became a topic of discussion. Is that enough precedent?

        • dzhiurgisa day ago |parent

          Do you legit believe he'd release them if there's anything even remotely controversial?

          • Refreeze5224a day ago |parent

            He hasn't released them yet though, has he? And I don't think it's likely they ever will be. Also it's already been mentioned that 1000 FBI agents are scrubbing them of anything incriminating, so even if they are, they'll likely be almost uselessly redacted.

            • dzhiurgisa day ago |parent

              So then it isn't much of a distraction

              • JumpCrisscrossa day ago |parent

                > then it isn't much of a distraction

                People were talking about it. Now we’re talking about Venezuela, too. That’s how distractions work.

                • dzhiurgis14 hours ago |parent

                  People talking is not going to achieve anything. It's like spreading awareness about climate change...