HNNewShowAskJobs
Built with Tanstack Start
A Tale of Four Fuzzers(tigerbeetle.com)
44 points by jorangreef 5 hours ago | 12 comments
  • atn3425 minutes ago

    > If you wrote a function that takes a PRNG and generates a random object, you already have a function capable of enumerating all objects.

    Something often forgotten here: if your PRNG only takes e.g. a 32-bit seed, you can generate at most 2^32 unique objects. Which you might chew through in seconds of fuzzing

  • pfdietz4 hours ago

    > If you wrote a function that takes a PRNG and generates a random object, you already have a function capable of enumerating all objects.

    More specifically: if you uniformly sample from a space of size N, then in O(N log N) tries you can expect to sample every point in the space. There's a logarithmic cost to this random sampling, but that's not too bad.

    • IngoBlechschmid3 hours ago |parent

      Just a tiny addition: Yes, N log N is the average time, but the distribution is heavily long-tailed, the variance is quite high, so in many instances it might take quite some time till every item has been visited (in contrast to merely most items).

      The keyword to look up more details is "coupon collector's problem".

      • pfdietz2 hours ago |parent

        You can also cover every one of the points "with high probability" in O(N log N) time (meaning: the chance you missed any point is at most 1/p(N) for a polynomial p, with the constant in the big-O depending on p.)

    • matklad4 hours ago |parent

      It is much better than this. You can _directly_ enumerate all the objects, without any probabilities involved. There's nothing about probabilities in the interface of a PRNG, it's just non-determinism!

      You could _implement_ non-determinism via probabilistic sampling, but you could also implement the same interface as exhaustive search.

      • pfdietz3 hours ago |parent

        Well, yes. But the point is that random sampling lets you do it without thinking. Even better, it can sample over multiple spaces at the same time, and over spaces we haven't even yet formalized. "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them." (Whitehead)

        An example is something like "pairwise testing" of arguments to a function. Just randomly generating values will hit all possible pairs of values to arguments, again with a logarithmic penalty.

        • AlotOfReadingan hour ago |parent

          The point is that you can exhaustively explore the space without logarithmic overhead. There's no benefits to doing it with random sampling and it doesn't even save thought.

          • pfdietzan hour ago |parent

            I already explained what the benefit is. What is it with this focus on offloading work from computers to people? Let people do things more easily without thinking, even if it burns more increasingly cheap cycles.

            • AlotOfReading34 minutes ago |parent

              You haven't explained what the benefit is. There aren't "spaces we haven't formalized" because of the pigeonhole principle. There are M bits. You can generate every one of those 2^M values with any max cycle permutation.

              What work is being offloaded from computers to people? It's exactly the same thing with more determinism and no logarithmic overhead.

              • pfdietz16 minutes ago |parent

                > There aren't any "spaces we haven't formalized"

                Suppose that space of N points is partitioned into M relevant subsets, for now we assume of the same size. Then random sampling hits each of those subsets in O(M log M) time, even if we don't know what they are.

                This sort of partitioning is long talked about in the testing literature, with the idea you should do it manually.

                > what work is being offloaded

                The need to write that program for explicitly enumerating the space.

  • efilife2 hours ago

    is the css completely fucked or am I the only one?

    • philipwhiukan hour ago |parent

      seems fine