I feel like there's some credibility to 'this time it's different'
The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon - the US dollar is the world's main reserve currency, the US enforces international order and trade rules via its military strength, it dominates technology and culture through 'US defaultism'.
I dont think AI even factors in to this.
The US economy is priced for global reach - if it manages to lose that through a combination of credible competitors, and loss of goodwill - it's going to be in heaps of trouble.
The looming US debt is also a great question - a lot of economists have argued that since most US debt is good. It's mostly in forms of treasuries purchased in USD that pay in USD - this means the indebtedness creates a huge amount of dollars abroad that foreigners have to then spend on US services, driving demand.
Should the US become an unfriendly power to the rest of the western world, it will find the demand for its currency plummeting, which I don't want to outline is a big issue.
All said, I think if the US continues down the political path it currently seems to be pursuing, 'this time it's different' actually will be.
What is different this time? Maybe:
1 Online shopping market in the range of 5 trillions 2 Electricity and energy price raise 3 Impossibility to lower interest rates 4 Tech market also in the range of multi Trillions 5 Global education and power expansion ...
Meaning that a % of all this money flow goes private pockets destroying medium class, which gets poorer.
It is like a memory leak that keeps sucking resources while growing exponentially until the system crashes. The real question for an economist is how much ram has the system and how much the memory has leaked?
This Legendary site is interesting: https://usdebtclock.org/index.html Especially when combined it´s data with AI.
I do really hope the AI bubble will collapse soon. The sooner it blows the less damage it will do. And hopefully we can go back to doing real work without all these leadership guys breathing down our necks to see if we are doing enough of this AI all their shareholders want us to be involved in.
It will suck even for us in europe due to shortsighted pension funds having invested in AI as well. But we'll just have to deal with it. I'm sure it will happen sooner rather than later.
PS: I'm not an AI hater as such. It definitely has its usecases where it shines. The problem is like with all hypes; it's not good at everything and it won't be all golden mountains tomorrow like the investors expect. This overhyped investor circlejerk is what screws up technology. It happened to blockchain, it happened to metaverse. All things that have their merits but somehow investors thought it would change the world overnight and make them insta-rich. Obviously didn't happen and it won't happen now.
> It happened to blockchain, it happened to metaverse.
I don't think AI is comparable to these technologies.
AI had a real impact on certain daily activities, such as search, coding, etc. While the metaverse was just a fantasy with no tangible benefit other than Zuck trying to create his own platform to take on Apple and Google.
Blockchain had some potential in certain fields, but it wasn't user-friendly or usable by many people.
Not really, there are good applications for metaverse tech, they just need time to mature. However I don't really see it in the realm of social media. It's not something that's for everyone, at least not yet. I don't understand what meta was thinking there.
It's amazing for gaming though, and for architecture, 3D product design collaboration. I use it a lot daily and I have 5 headsets (plus two AR ones) but I also know it's not for everyone. It's also really good for porn which somehow in America isn't seen as a real industry but in my view it's a good usecase for the tech too. Anything that relies on immersion benefits from it.
AI has its niches too where it's genuinely useful (and coding really is a niche, it's not a mainstream activity) but just like metaverse they're trying to cram it in situations where it doesn't really add any value.
> It will suck even for us in europe due to shortsighted pension funds having invested in AI as well.
Only to a very small degree and systems like Germany THANK GOD do not have any AI exposure at all.
The real problem is that when the US sniffs, Europe gets a full blown cough. We are way too dependent on the US, we have seen that 2007ff, and we haven't changed a single darn thing.
my bet is: "new" tech, emphasis on "new", will keep US on top or whatever US become after the big reveal.
Software sector basically got cut in half just on Claude Code. You have to wonder what is next. I don’t think loss in economics is 1:1 with replacement so it’s not zero sum. Production doesn’t necessarily go up. In fact, net output is going to go down if you think about all the B2B lost too.
Whoever comes into power next better start thinking about universal income fast. We are gonna get there sooner than expected.
Software productivity doubling would be a huge boon for the economy, not a drag.
Of course it's very disruptive for people that lose their jobs, but many of them will get similar new jobs, and the overall impact is higher output.
If all companies fire 50% of their engineers, how will anybody find similar new jobs? In an ideal world software productivity doubling WOULD be a huge boon for the economy IF companies used the increased productivity of their engineers as a way to manage tech debt, R&D and other issues that were put in the backlog because historically there were no resources for this. In reality all companies look at increased productivity as a source for layoffs which does not translate in higher output but the same output done by less people. Which is a net negative because now you have 50% of all engineers without a job and no discernible increase in quality of deliverables.
If software engineer productivity basically doubled as is being claimed in this thread, I think you'd see companies scrambling to lay off everyone else in an effort to hire even more software engineers. They'd be by far the most valuable and productive employees at every tech company and you'd be foolish not to have as many as you can. I'm being a bit facetious but throughout history when a resource or profession takes a dramatic leap in efficiency, the demand for that thing rather than decreasing as is predicted here, only increases since it has become far more valuable & effective.
The FAANG companies hoarded engineering talent for years. It was really difficult to hire in any market where they were located. What I think will happen/is happening is the combination of AI assisted development and reduction in FAANG engineering headcount will enable business transformation pretty much everywhere.
The impact of that transformation remains to be seen.
If all companies fire 50% of their engineers,
This is not a reasonable premise.
Stocks might go down if AI doesn't bring in enough revenue. The real risk seems to be currency depreciation though. The USD is already down 15% this year compared to the Euro. I'm worried about what the next FED chair appointee will do. JPow has stuck to his principles so far.
>what the next FED chair appointee will do
What do you think he will do, given he's one of 12 votes?
The admin wants to cut rates drastically. But the FED policymakers just voted 10-2 to not cut rates. So I worry the admin will try something crazy to force a cut.
Maybe simultaneous with the crash of the Chinese economy, which was predicted for 40 years now
I don't understand why people expect the Chinese economy to crash - they can basically make everything, a lot of which is internationally competitive, they can trade for the resources they don't have with the goods that they do - with basically the whole world dependent on them. They have a huge internal base of poor people, and lifting them to a middle class level will alone fuel domestic demand for years to come.
Their biggest problem seems to be they're too good at building stuff, whenever a new category of product pops up, they quickly build up both volume and drive down prices through competition so that they saturate their internal markets (see: housing, EVs)
Bad faith analysis. Your original hypothesis failed (and has failed consistently from 08-25), and the rest of your article is you trying to contrive narratives to support your foregone conclusion that the US economy will collapse (soon, as you claim).
In Europe, people hold cash at negative interest rates because they have so few new ideas and so little innovation to invest in. Where exactly do you think the money will go?
If you insist on believing the US economy will crash without a well thought out thesis, I think that’s a beautiful thing. When you sell your positions on US companies, I’ll gladly be on the BUY side of that order.
> In Europe, people hold cash at negative interest rates because they have so few new ideas and so little innovation to invest in. Where exactly do you think the money will go?
That's a bit reductive, in Europe there's a much bigger culture of saving, most people I know here are very averse on taking debt if unnecessary, only going into debt for large purchases like a house or a car. Even for cars I see many outright purchasing a used one in cash instead of going into financing/leasing.
People hold cash but also invest, it's savings in general that are high, varying between 10-25% of yearly income saved (compared to the US's ~5%).
I think this narrative of "so little innovation" is peddled very much in the software-adjacent circles but it forgets that innovation is not only from software, if you really think Europe has no innovation you are either ignorant or purposefully fostering a bad narrative. No, Europe doesn't have the VC industry, and the software companies' culture of the USA, it does innovate with a different model.
> If you insist on believing the US economy will crash without a well thought out thesis, I think that’s a beautiful thing. When you sell your positions on US companies, I’ll gladly be on the BUY side of that order.
Please do, as I've been cashing out throughout this year anything that has any direct exposure to the USA stock market I need people like you on the other side, thank you very much.
You comically self contradict yourself. If it was lack of ideas to invest in that drove holding of cash at negative interest rates, then what stops the european from just buying us stocks? US collapse is inevitable, until its NOT…
No one will ever get the timing right, but if you see the fundamental flaws of the economy, you know a crash is going to come. There were a lot of people who predicted the housing crash, not the timing but the crash. There are several signs that this is happening and the one no one is talking about is gold and silver prices. Don’t worry about the timing, you’ll never get the timing right, just worry about the fundamental economics and the flaws and protect yourself.
I happen to agree just because of golden silver prices that it’s going to happen sooner than later, regardless if war breaks out with Iran.
At any given moment there is always someone predicting that the economy will crash. So someone will always have predicted it. The question is do they actually have some insight or were they just lucky.
This not a prediction. The crash is currently happening. You just do not want to see it. Can you explain gold and silver prices? can you explain why bitcoin has been flat now dropping? The falling dollar? The US Treasury yields rising since 2020? CAn you explain why consumers feel at ease even though economicsts are stying everything is great?
I mean why do you think the FED and Trump are all over each other? Because there is no way out. If they lower rates, inflation. If they raise them, assets collapse.
People have been warning about this exact secnario since 2008 and no one is listening. Back then it was a prediction, but now it is happening.
Gold and silver are likely to crash. I don't think they are big enough to cause a crash of the overall economy, though.
I'm kinda new into economy crashes, was a kid in 2008, is there a way to protect of it?
Live like you're already poor, reduce all unnecessary spending, adopt an ascetic mindset to support this lifestyle. That way, when a collapse comes you'll be accustomed to living frugally already and you'll have all the money you saved by getting a head start already saved up to get you through rough patches with relative ease.
Now, when I say live like you're poor, I mean do it smart. Don't grocery shop at a gas station, do your necessary purchases in bulk (actually poor people can't or won't, but would be better off if they could.). Don't but the cheapest boots, but rather the best value. But when choosing how many vacations to take, maybe pick camping locally more often than exotic vacations. Eat simple foods, don't order out fancy stuff and get accustomed to such luxuries. Don't automatically buy the latest consumer toy just because it looks fun. Don't move into a nicer apartment just because you got a raise. You get the idea.
Nothing provides complete protection, but diversification can help reduce the impact.
The person saying gold and mining stocks may or may not be correct - it's still a risky position. Precious metals could be in a commodity bubble right now (or not). It's had to predict anything with perfect accuracy, which is why diversification matters.
You probably shouldn't be jumping completely in or out of anything because that requires timing, which is also not easy to do. What you can do is change he weights withing your portfolio. For example, reducing your US equity exposure to increase your bond exposure. Or reducing your US growth exposure to increase your US value and Eurozone dividend exposure. It's best to listen to several financial companies reports to weigh what to do.
Skill. Knowledge. At your age, your biggest assert is your future earnings potential. The more employable you are, the better you will make iduring and after a downturn. In fact, the highest skill folks tend to even profit from hiccups in the economy.
Are the ones newer to the workforce just screwed or is there a way out? Kinda sucks that all this went down around 6-7 years into my tenure and it's just been a few years of scraping together freelance + portfolio projects to try and climb out of tbis rut.
(This might sadly be rhetorical given what I hear of '08, but perhaps there are new channels open to take advantage of. Or at least old channels to raise awareness of).
6-7 years of experience make you prime material for employment in the sw industry. Experience but not too expensive/entitled yet.
Have you considered applying?
Yes. And here I am nearly 3 yesrs post last full time, 9 years of exexperience, and still looking (feel free to read my struggles in detail below).
What do you recommend applying to? I work in games so I guess I'm playing on hard mode (especially in these times), but the common wisdom of "normal software jobs love taking game programners in" hasn't rung true this time around.
----
Life story: Laid off mid 2023. I took a few months off when I got laid off, but the last quarter of 2023 wasn't kind to me.
2024 got me some freelance work, so I wasn't out on the streets, but it was a complete circus of an interview racket. Honestly worse than my first job hunt out of college. Its bad when you feel deep down there was someone better than you, but when you go 5 rounds in with good vibes to hear... Nothing back? That's truly disrespectful. And it sadly wasn't a one off.
Then in 2025 I hit some medical emergencies so I needed to urgently find anything. So I found part time work outside of tech and made due with that as I paid down those debts. That totaled up to a part time freelance gig, a part time job, and a few (failed) attempts at some hustles over 2025 only to end up making maybe a third of what I made back in 2022.
Now it's 2026 and I'll try again next month. My freelance work covers any gaps I would have had, I have a website almost ready with some personal projects to point to, and I'm overall more adjusted to the realities of this current market and will approach accordingly. I'm optimistic, but I know we're still in the thick of the weeds here. So I'll take any leads I can get.
I (like I'm sure many others) predicted it in 2007 and hedged against it by getting a 10 year fixed mortgage at then-current rates on the basis that rates would go sky high as they had in earlier recessions in the UK.
They plummeted to next-to-zero, and in addition to the injury I had to endure the insult of the people who hadn't seen it coming gloating about their low standard variable rates.
Ofc I clearly didn't have much real economic understanding but I guess I am saying that beyond normal common financial sense (the lack of which at scale leads to these situations) which you should be using anyway, we don't really know which way the wind is blowing, and what the exact consequences will be.
I remember the opposite, just before we left the ERM (European Exchange Rate Mechanism). Interest rates hit 15% and one of my colleagues was gloating about how he had just taken on a fixed rate mortgage. A few days later we left and interest rates plummeted.
Your life should have a plan beyond tomorrow or the next hype cycle so that you progress towards your goals independently of the flow of society. This will allow you to navigate those flows instead.
Assets traditionally used for such hedge are already massively inflated (look gold an silver price charts), so I'm not sure it's worth it.
This all depends on what timelines you work on, how many assets you are trying to protect.
Alternatively you protect yourself by lowering your dependence on steady income.
Prices of investments will also go down - stocks certainly, although precious metals were traditionally recession proof, we've never had such a bull run on gold/silver in anticipation of recession. My guess is that it won't hold - I've heard that jewelers already refuse to take precious metals at anything near market value.
Yeah, as a SWE I just got sufficient money to pay my expenses AND have some to invest quite recently (about 2/1 months ago), but I basically froze the money instead of investing because everything seems overvalued and about to fall (even silver and gold).
It's difficult to draw many lessons from 2008. The people who suffered most then were over extended home owners. It's still not a good idea to be one of those people but there aren't so many of them now anyway.
There's a common consensus in economics that bubbles are really hard to predict, and even some argument that they don't actually really exist. Great paper came out recently called "Bubbled for Farma"[0] which looks at predictability for bubbles and finds some indicators but no sure fire thing.
That sort of rules out an easy or known way to predict and avoid bubbles. That said, it's worth noting our current historic period marked by being post financialisation (taking out a bunch of investment regulation) of markets in the 80s exhibits a lot more economic crashes (the real reason we should car about bubbles) than most of history (although most of history also does not exhibit any economic growth, so be careful what you wish for).
In particular, the period between around 1930-1975 showed extremely high growth with almost no bubbles or market crashes[1].
So my semi-knowledgeable but definitely not expert view is that: - Bubbles and crashes are not easy to predict, and therefore avoid - That said, our existing market rules have effects on the number of crashes/bubbles we see (but there's debate around whether you actually would want an economy with less crashes/bubbles if that meant left growth)
[0] https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/Bubbles%20for%20...
[1] You can find this discussed a bunch of places but Ha-Joon Chang's Economics: The User's Guide talks about this very fluently.
Edit: I think your question might actually have just been about personal protection again bubbles, rather than protecting the economy as a whole. In which case, having margin in your spending so you'd be able to live if things were some portion more expensive against your earnings is probably the only sane suggestion.
Gold and silver mining stocks. And International ETF funds. It looks like the United States will be going through the depression alone.
Was thinking the same, but why would everyone be more interested in gold an silver in a couple of months than they are right now? Sure it beats holding dollars of stocks.
But, keeping both feet on the ground, I'm tempted to think that if the economy collapses I'd not be very interested in buying precious metals. I'd be looking for food, a roof to live under and safety.
You can invest in silver mining stocks, and be concerned about food at the same time. One is for long-term survival. The other is for short term survival. You can think of things like toilet paper and razors as bartering tools or actual new money, and the golden silver investments as objection of the current money you have right now.
My grandfather lives in a great depression in Manhattan. He told me some crazy stories, but you know what most people made it through. I think this time our system is more fragile, but I have no doubt that human survival is much stronger than me think as well as human socialism.
For instance, I am homeless living with schizoaffective disorder and I’m not worried so why should you be?
Buy high, sell low. Excellent result when you follow the masses, especially when being a little late.
Where was I giving that advice? Gold and silver mining stocks are extremely low compared to the price of gold and silver buying mining socks right now is buying low.
I saw the graphs of some silver mining stocks and it seems to just follow silver price, why don't just buy silver then?
Mini stocks were traditionally used as way to invest in asset as a security. But currently with all the ETFs that are backed with physical asset itself, I'd choose that way.
Holding asset yourself (gold) causes logistical issues and massive buy/sell split on your side, but it has some advantages too.
Mining stock are lagging, so they have the highest to go right now.
> This is the 11th time that tariffs have happened, and it just isn’t surprising anymore.
There are tariffs everywhere, all the time. Canada just dramatically cut its 90% (or something) tariff on Chinese cars. Tariffs haven't just started happening because someone you don't like did them.
Yes but tariffs were a long-term strategic tool. Not a bullying tactic for someone who woke up the wrong way.
> There are tariffs everywhere, all the time.
This neglects the scale, cost, and unpredictability. His tariffs are far from being the usual seen elsewhere. Of course, you should already understand this.
Blanket tariffs used as blackmail is obviously different.
This is incredibly disingenuous.
> Tariffs haven't just started happening because someone you don't like did them
Nobody said they have, throwing ridiculously high ones with your allies and trading partners is new though.
Otoh, tarrifs as a foreign policy / coercion method disconnected from trade and local economy impacts definitely is a new thing.
Sure, it might have been used as a delicate lever previously but in its current brazen form is just bad diplomacy.
Who do we expect will replace Americas global leadership and will they really be better for everyone?
China seems to be the only candidate. But whatever happens it won’t be in the same way as before.
As for whether it is better for everyone, that question became a lot harder in just the last year. Who is «everyone»? And what do we mean by «better»?
With the US wanting to annex territory from its NATO allies, and engaging in extortionate tariffs, it is harder to argue that the US is good for Europe. Which is why Europe has already started to look eastward. Starting with a comprehensive trade deal with India.
What’s happening is good for Russia and China. Not so much for the rest of the world.
I disagree that something good for China is necessarily bad for the rest of the world, which you seem to imply here includes only Europe.
China alone has a higher population than Europe and the USA combined. I'd say that even if things got worse for Europe, to humanity it still constitutes a net benefit. Lives aren't of less value just because they're in a (gasp) communist country.
> communist country
New things need new words to describe them, I know people love to call bad guys "nazis" or "communists" and that everyone seems stuck with 1939 lingo but come one. 1950s china isn't 1980s china which isn't 2026 china, yet they're all ""communists""
China is ruled by the Communist Party. It does not seem unreasonable to call them a communist country.
Yes, I know, they have moved away from historical communism, and it's more of a "brand name" than an ideological description. Still, it is their chosen name for what they're doing.
No words are not required.
Authoritarian. Totalitarian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_fascism is an OLD term.
None of these are "communism"... people who don't know better use it as a "china bad" gotcha because it's about as far as their political education allows them to think but it really is way more complex than that.
> Authoritarian. Totalitarian.
Yes these apply, but they're not synonyms of communism. The Iranian government is authoritarian, totalitarian and absolutely not communist
> Red fascism is an OLD term.
But surely you see how dumb this sounds? Fascism is by definition a far right moment, communism is by definition far left moment. By definition fascism is opposed to communism... Of course if we start using literal American propagandists buzzwords ("red fascism") as a basis for modern political discussions we're not going to get anywhere...
Not necessarily. But China's aggression towards Taiwan and their recent rare earth metals move last year show that China does not have the worlds best interests at heart either. We're picking between two evils and China's evil is more predictable than the US's right now.
This goes for Asia in general. Korea, Japan, and China spent centuries fighting and making them the de facto super power makes it easy to resume the Korean war or try to overtake the (military wise) crippled Japan should they be emboldened by the faltering/collapse of NATO.
How much coal do they burn? Did climate change suddenly become NOT an existential threat?
Are their global fishing fleets sustainable?
Where do the precursors for fentanyl come from?
The single superpower thing was an anomaly which was mostly a result of one specific country being largely untouched by WW2; we're more likely heading back towards multiple regional powers with varying levels of cooperation, e.g. EU+Mercosur+India agreements that just happened.
The lines are still being drawn, but its doubtful one single power will emerge.
The US is resigning the position intentionally. It's not as if someone is gearing up to replace it.
But as a trade partner? China, markets love reliability and stability. Not every 4 years wondering if there will be another trade war for reasons unknown.
You'd be very surprised the amount of malicious behavior countries will ignore to allow trade. Look at Saudi Arabia.
Seems like the rest of the world is just signing new trade deals and continuing on as normal. I hope America returns to normalcy in the next election and everything settles down. Else it seems like back to the old multipolar world.
I don't see any way we're not heading back to the multipolar world. They've managed to burn almost all of the goodwill and soft power that took 80 years to accumulate in 373 days.
Even with a "return to normalcy", the trade and military agreements being forged are permanently diminishing America's influence. Especially given that we're never more than 4 years away from this happening again.
No one, we don't need a leader. We need decentralised governance.
We have that. What has broken down is cooperation. The kind that has ensured relative peace for 80’ish years. That order is breaking down and creates instability. Instability means more conflict and less productive use of resources.
Well, cooperation with one specific player.
Cooperation among the rest of the world is rapidly progressing in response.
That's not how it works though, is it? What you're really saying there is global governance.
Which faction that emerges as a dominant ever says "Oh no! We better stop using our advantage to improve our condition".
The EU just signed large deals with Latin America and India, binding a sizable chunk of the world to its rules. ASEAN is on the docket, Japan, Canada and South Korea have been signed for a while now.
Make of that what you will. Power isn't always tanks and soldiers. Sometimes its bureaucracy and contracts.
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China probably. No I don't think it is better but at least their leadership is actually sane. Evil, but sane and predictable.
China wants but China won't. They lack the military capability of force projection that is the basis of the US dollar dominance, their currency cannot be used as a reserve/trading currency due to capital transfer controls (that have no sign of ever going away because otherwise everyone who has money in China will move it immediately out of the reach of the CCP), foreign investors have gotten very skeptical over the years regarding IP theft on one side and supply chain law issues (e.g. underage labor, 996 and modern slavery, environmental concerns) on the other, and on top of that China is getting rocked hard by the inevitable consequences of the one-child policy that is driving up labor costs, further reducing the attractivity for foreign investors.
China doesn’t need to project force. Economics might is sufficient.
Yes, they want Taiwan, but that’s a silly national pride thing. It would not really benefit them to take it by force.
Even the evil adjective starts to look debatable in contrast to what current hegemony is doing on its way down.
Apparently their worst offence so far was calmly outgrowing and out competing their peers while benefiting global consumers with he fruits of organized labor of their own society.
Iam sceptical whether china is more evil than the current and historic US. Both countries have commited atrocities but the US was way more involved "for their interests overseas". Maybe the western distrust towards china will make it a different power equilibrium.
If you think that's the worst offence then you should check the recent and past news more often.
What was the most grusome Chinese offence you learned about form the news recently?
Stop getting Chinese territory under your fishing boats! Leave immediately for correct and healthy harmony! Fires water cannon
As opposed to America who uses cruise missiles on fishing boats in a different continent?
Maoist protracted people's war has traditionally relied on being less of an asshole to the peasants than the enemy.
I was referring more to the millions of Uyghurs in political prisons and their overreaching surveillance of the population.
And I was just speaking of what I think about China, not saying the current US administration is any better. I don't think it will be there forever though.
I'm particularly annoyed that the US is for the people of Iran and not, like China, for the government of Iran. And the US putting secondary sanctions on Russian oil to starve Putin from Chinese and Indian oil revenues? Disgusting.
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I feel like one of the following is true (and I don't know yet which is the case):
- I'm genuinely a lot more pessimistic than is accurate around what is and isn't a bubble - Bubbles are just slower to burst than I expect
Possibly some combination of both. But even ignoring AI which is relatively new, it seems "obvious" to me, that whatever value Bitcoin has, investment in the asset is detached completely from that value. I'd have expected to see Bitcoin crash a long, long time ago, and have been thinking it's "just around the corner" for years and year.
And yet, the bitcoin price as a whole, although it's dipped recently, and is clearly volatile, still remains something like 10x what it's value was 5 years ago[0].
Something I think people forget when it comes to the valuation of bitcoin is just how much of it is used to fund illegal activities (Betting, Drugs, anything on the darkweb,...). I honestly believe much of the valuation is linked to that, but I have no source or proof.
Some sort of an AI crash / bubble bursting is expected to be honest - now if that will take the rest of the US economy as well.... debatable. Any strong opinions on this?
I'm not an expert, my knowledge is just from reading around a lot, but I think there's some stats that would suggest the US is particularly exposed:
- At points, AI investment has actually seen more spending that US consumer spending[0], there's some debate on this[1] but if true, that leads to a narrative of the US being 'propped up' by AI investment.
- US GDP growth was strong last year, but behind quite a lot of other similar countries like the UK, Germany and Japan, which doesn't suggest a comparatively strong economy.
- The US is actively increasing it's borrowing substantially (Big Beautiful Bill) while lowering it's currencies value through trade wars and unpredictability (see bond market). That reduces its ability to use its wealth to borrow its way out of a financial crash (like with the 2008 crash, or Covid).
This could be a little overblown and is hard to tell, the US is definitely an extremely wealthy country, even if its less wealthy comparatively that a few years prior.
[0] https://fortune.com/2025/08/06/data-center-artificial-intell...
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2026/01/26/ai-wasnt-the-biggest-engine-...
What else does the economy consist of these days? It's pretty much already in a recession if you exclude the big AI companies.
Besides, basically every company had been desperately shoving AI into all their products. Throwing all of that out when the bubble pops won't be pretty.
> now if that will take the rest of the US economy as well.... debatable.
In the grand scheme of GDP, the US hasn't done much growth in anhtjjg else this decade, all while massively increasing spending to prevent post COVID recessions.
It certainly doesn't look good. But this was being setup for 30 years as we outsourced our strong manufacturing wing to make the top brass richer in the short run. So I do think the house of cards falls if AI does.
The sad part is that we may have been able to whether the storm under the right leadership. But that sure isn't the leadership in the White House right now.
Yes, the concentration of wealth led to the AI boom and it’s going to lead to the crash for sure. The AI boom was nothing but a crypto bubble. And since it’s making up a large majority of the investment right now I would say that’s the only reason that we didn’t have a crash last year.
Is there really a bubble though?
Most of the activity is with the same old big tech stocks, and the largest investment by far is not even market driven. Stargate is defense spending.
AI doesn't have to sway consumers, and it doesn't even have to work that well now or ever for governments to keep pumping money into it. The whole point of Stargate is to de-risk with reduced need for security clearances to handle big data (whistleblowing) and eventually get away from foreign tech. Also, there are a ton of businesses who have always done things on-premises for compliance and they can now cut costs by migrating to these government vetted data centers.
It genuinely shocks me how rarely anyone brings this up. It's been very loudly said by Trump and OpenAI since he took office, and it was going to happen regardless of who was elected.
Surely the surge of predictions of an incoming crash will never end though.
Last 2 reported quarters have 3.8% and 4.4% gdp growth.
Next report is end of february. So it's minimum 4 months away at earliest.
Stock markets are at 10 year peaks.
Unemployment is a little bit high at 4.5%.
Inflation is a little bit high at 2.7%
US government debt is very high at 125%
PMIs are strong across the board.
Also in context, trillions in declared new investments in the usa. Probably trillions more in undeclared new investment trying to avoid tariffs.
No competitor possible on reserve currency status, Euro in about 2013 was looking like hot stuff but they regulated themselves out of it.
So I consider, the crash probability of the US economy is certainly not going to be happening.
I keep seeing soon, sliding into, moving towards.
USD Currency futures have already collapsed.
World trade will move to (not a good idea) RMB or (mistakenly) crypto.
Euro is the only real option left and it’s beautifully positioned in the center. Great leadership too.
[flagged]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden
Not even the right order of magnitude
This isn't a crash, it is something else comming, perhaps the "jackpot", where society/civilisation unravells, climate disaster kicks in with real persistant challenges everywhere, and some third, fourth, fifth effects that break our millenial run to the top of our planets ecosystem as the ultimate apex species. It has been a good run, but useing the same tacticts as our stone age ancestors, is, I think, about to bite, hard. And it is literaly this, our strategy is to keep useing the same tacticts.Jackpot.
Where it's gonna crash to? Where is going the capital move to when everythings going up? (except crypto apparently)
Could you clarify the question? When everything's going up, it's definitionally not a crash; do you mean something like "where are people going to flee to now/soon, in anticipation of a crash, given how buoyant everything is"?
That exodus is what crash is. Yes. My question is where "they" are going flee to in anticipation of the crash to actually make the crash happen.
They're not definitionally the same. Normally a (stock market) crash is just "everyone's assessment of expected future cash flows goes down, meaning that what everyone owns is less valuable". One thing that can cause people's assessments to drop is "everyone else is withdrawing from it, which I assume means they're assessing it as being much less valuable, so they have information I don't, so I should revise downwards", which can make a self-sustaining feedback loop, but that's certainly not the only possible cause of a crash; I wouldn't even say it was the most likely cause of an AI-bubble crash.
My guesses would be "everyone's assessments go down together because OpenAI et al's predictions of their future revenue are observed to be consistently vastly overinflated vs actual performance, but everyone was previously assuming they were roughly correct" or "some political thing happens which makes OpenAI et al's services obviously much less valuable or makes them much less able to provide services".
> Where it's gonna crash to?
You know that the reason things bubble and burst is because speculation outpaces reality at too high a rate, ie : too much "capital" is make up of hopes and dreams.
When reality hits and the numbers make sense, all that hope and dreams go pop.
Scotty doesn't know!
There is no reality in the market. All prices are speculation, always. If there was any reality involved things like Tesla would crash 3 times already. My question is where the spekulants are going to escape to. I don't think it can be even dollar this time because in this crash dollar most likely will go away as the global currency and the inflation will be devastating.
Ahhhh hehe well there will always be something to speculate on! I don't really know but I know I'm happy I've been hoarding gold. My grandad always drilled it into my mind. Became a habbit over the years!
Any time now:
1. Market crash
2. AI bubble bursting
3. Year of the linux desktop
Have I missed something?
Half life 3
This will probably be better than duke nukem forever because they were always working in DNF but nobody has been working on hf3 in 20 years.
- [deleted]
GTA VI
Beyond Good and Evil 2
This is really obscured by the K-shaped growth, dual economy now. We've reached a stable pattern of a deep underclass serving the wealthy. We won't have a crash or "correction" because the entrenched top 5% has figured out a way extract value from everyone else indefinitely.
> This is really obscured by the K-shaped growth, dual economy now. We've reached a stable pattern of a deep underclass serving the wealthy. We won't have a crash or "correction" because the entrenched top 5% has figured out a way extract value from everyone else indefinitely.
Apologies for quoting all 3 sentences of parent, but the poorly-drawn conclusion depends on the full sequence of seemingly rational statements.
The context this sequence is missing is that approximately 70% of the US economy depends on consumer spending. [0][1] If the lower stroke of the K-economy diverges too much from the upper, the economy is going to grind to halt.
Consumer spending of the bottom 90% cannot (easily?) be replaced by the top 10%.
[0] https://govfacts.org/money/broader-economy/economic-indicato...
[1] https://www.npr.org/2025/11/23/nx-s1-5615222/consumer-spendi...
There's quite a few factors here that delayed what should have logically already happened.
1. All the tarriff reactions cause US companies to import a huge amount of stuff for 2025. From what I understand, we're about to exhaust all of those imports.
2. The unemployment reports (especially the U3 numbers) hide quite a bit of turmoil going on under the hood of the job market.
- If you lost your job and switched to Uber/Doordash, you're not unemployed.
- If you are riding on severance pay instead of filikg for unemployment, you're not unemployed.
- If you got tired of throwing out hundreds of apps only to get automated rejections and take a break a month, you're not unemployed.
- If you just graduated into this hellscape and can't qualify for any unemployment, you're not unemployed (you're technically not part of the workforce yet).
There's a lot of these small shifts in how jobs work that make U3 less reliable in reflecting reality. And I only touched the surface of these issues.
3. Continuing on the U3 with a point worthy of its own bullet: the unemployment appears flat, but the makeup of what's happening per industry really lays down the reality. The only industries growing are hospitality (aka food service and similar sorts of duties) and health care. And to top it off these "growing" industries shift more and more to fractional work. Pretty much every other industry is down. So people are getting laid off/fired and moving to part time work to get by. "Stable" by unemployment numbers, but very unstable on the day-to-day. Add in the recent congressional bills for healthcare subsidies and we're throwing more gas on rhe fire.
4. I'm sure it's been said so much by now, but AI in the US is the only thing holding up the GDP. Without that massive investment, the GDP would be at best, dead flat. The US isn't growing in a way that reflects actual yields to anyone outside of a select few shareholders. We're not building more houses, mining more materials (on the contrary, we've resumed ransacking others'), manufacturing more machinery, nor even producing more service value for customers and businesses. We're putting all hedges on one thing with an uncertain outcome. If that industry declines, so does the rest of the US.
5. The K shaped economy. I have to check these numbers again, but I believe that spending is indeed up, but the makeup of spending per income band is more stark than ever. The too 10% income households makes up half of US's spending. But there are signs that even many high income houses add also starting to hunker down on spending.
----
That was a lot and it still only scratches the surface. But the TLDR version is that there's a lot of statistics massaging over the real struggles of life and many industries reaching a breaking point they did a good job putting off. But by this point it will only take a needle to break this camel.
Some advice for those who are young:
If every idiot (I'm including myself in this) on HN/Reddit/Youtube/Tiktok/mainstream news/etc. thinks we're in a bubble and is crazy pessimistic and thinks economic collapse is near...it means we're not actually in a bubble.
When the bitter, frustrated pessimists on HN shift their tone to being neutral or even mildly optimistic, then I will start worrying. Because that will mean the general public must be reaching 1999 levels of euphoria for a hint of optimism to show up here.
I think its like being in a horror movie - you know the axe guy is in there with you, but you don't know when he's going to get you.
>When the bitter, frustrated pessimists on HN shift their tone to being neutral or even mildly optimistic, then I will start worrying.
That seems to have happened around 2023 or so as people chose to laud over AI instead of understanding the underpinnings of society coming undone in real time.
So, should I be worried?
The hourly "AI is a bubble" threads doesn't scream optimistic to me.
Its a busy site, I can also find hourly "AI brought joy back to my life" threads.
I know HN always has its fair share of doomers, and generally the HN communities track record anecdotally regarding finance and the market is frankly terrible. Tesla (stock price wrong), Bitcoin (wrong), AI a huge dot com like bubble (wrong in my opinion - TBD though).
I’m optimistic on the US. We could realistically print a 5 handle GDP, oil at rock bottom prices, lower federal income taxes this year. As far as Gold and Silver I just see it being propped up by speculators. Silver spot is down 15% this mornings and gold down 8%.
I predict double digit gains in the S&P by end of year and strong financial conditions with mag 7 continuing their lead. Tesla also will be a big winner.
At this point I think Tesla could sell zero cars this year and their stock price would still be astronomical.
> We could realistically print a 5 handle GDP, oil at rock bottom prices, lower federal income taxes this year.
Ignoring everything else in terms of oredictions: the US simply doesn't have that spending buffer anymore to really outspend yet another crash. Its at what, 37 trillion right now? And it's only rising more and more by the month.
The only thing worse than a crash would be the US defaulting on that. And then we'd be screwed in ways that we don't recover from in any of our lifetimes. Nearly a century of trust and soft power completely down the drain.
Even if they don't default. How long there is willing investors? Even if FED drops rates. It is an auction. So rates should be set there. But maybe printing will happen via bigger and bigger market operations. Leading higher and higher rates. With probably inflation... So I suppose valuations could go even higher...
I do not understand economics and from engineer perspective whole thing doesn't make much sense.
It is a giant Ponzi scheme and those tend to collapse at some point.
> Which is to say that no individual decision make want’s to be the first mover, so the market does not move.
Uh, that's not accurate. Hathaway is sitting all cash because of it and so far they have been the one losing. Even if you assume (and correctly I think) that the market is overvalued, their stock pile of cash is eroding: https://newzsquare.com/warren-buffett-warns-of-fiat-currency...
> A year ago there were a few signs. Right now, it feels like everything is primed to blow. Is that new?
The market is unhealthy. Too unhealthy that I think it can no longer self-heal the usual ways (recession/crash/etc.) and we'll instead move to more advanced stage of hyperinflation, global war, etc.